Any word on Epsilon/Emacs key bindings?

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_ed_ - 05 Feb 2004 03:19 GMT

A serious omission from VS.NET: Epsilon keybindings were the reason
that a lot of programmers did not move to VS.NET. I've heard lots of
rumors about new versions of the IDE. Any word on whether Epsilon
bindings will be back in place? Or is everyone happy with the
default editor?

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harry_bosch - 05 Feb 2004 06:50 GMT

> A serious omission from VS.NET: Epsilon keybindings were the reason
> that a lot of programmers did not move to VS.NET. I've heard lots of
> rumors about new versions of the IDE. Any word on whether Epsilon
> bindings will be back in place? Or is everyone happy with the
> default editor?

IMO the default keystrokes are terrible, but then anyone who has used a
certain set of keys for too many years feels that way :-)

So why don't you set it up the way you want? I've never Epsilon but I
assume it's pretty close to Emacs. Have you tried to do it via keystroke
assignments? I haven't set up Emacs bindings myself, I set up my own
system that I've been using for years, but you can do single- and double-
keystroke assignments like you'd need for Emacs compatibility (which is
funny, because I also use Emacs every day right next to VS.NET, but I
switch gears mentally back and forth as I work. Add in all those non-
customizable "arrow-key/notepad" style tools and that's three mental shifts
I'm doing).

Anyway, even though it's not there as a predefined selection, it is doable
or close to it. In fact, look through the editor commands and the macros
that are supplied: it's obvious some people at Microsoft use or have
studied Emacs, because there are a number of commands straight out of
the Emacs manual. Just assign them to the key(s) you want. And a couple
macros to help out would probably get you very close indeed.

I've never heard of anyone who didn't want to use VS.NET because of the
lack of Emacs keybindings. The people I've worked with customized it rather
than just not use it. The customization features are quite good.

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harry

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_ed_ - 05 Feb 2004 20:08 GMT

>> A serious omission from VS.NET: Epsilon keybindings were the reason
>> that a lot of programmers did not move to VS.NET. I've heard lots of
>> rumors about new versions of the IDE. Any word on whether Epsilon
>> bindings will be back in place? Or is everyone happy with the
>> default editor?

>IMO the default keystrokes are terrible, but then anyone who has used a
>certain set of keys for too many years feels that way :-)
>
>So why don't you set it up the way you want? I've never Epsilon but I
>assume it's pretty close to Emacs. Have you tried to do it via keystroke
>assignments?

Yeah, any editor that requires you to reach over to the other side of
the keyboard just to move the cursor...well, that's just bad. And the
keys that MS DOES choose to map to control-keys...again, not well
thought out.

I know what you mean about changing between editors. I can use Emacs
keystrokes just about anywere *except* in VS.NET. It's tough to
remember to switch modes when going back to the retarded MS editor.

Anyway, I'd love to know why MS dropped Epsilon/Emacs mappings, and I
was hoping to hear they would be added in again. Yes, I could write a
bunch of key bindings, but surely someone must have done this already.
Right?

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harry_bosch - 05 Feb 2004 23:52 GMT

> Yeah, any editor that requires you to reach over to the other side of
> the keyboard just to move the cursor...well, that's just bad. And the
> keys that MS DOES choose to map to control-keys...again, not well
> thought out.

I despise the "arrow-key/notepad" mode in so many Windows apps (more so
when you cannot change it). I also hate that the ALT key is sticky. Do you
remember years ago how the function keys used to be over on the left, and
you could use them fairly easily with one hand, even with ctrl/shift/alt
modifiers? That's another thing I miss.

If you're using Emacs keystrokes, it certainly helps to map the CapsLock
key to Ctrl. I use Ctrl2Cap from www.sysinternals.com for that.

> I know what you mean about changing between editors. I can use Emacs
> keystrokes just about anywere *except* in VS.NET. It's tough to
> remember to switch modes when going back to the retarded MS editor.

Yes, no doubt about it. I regularly screw-up and start using Emacs keys in
VS.NET or vice-versa, especially when I am going back and forth one to the
other. You would think I'd make Emacs and my VS.NET keystrokes compatibile,
but honestly I don't like the Emacs keystrokes much, they don't seem to
have been for rapid typing. And changing them in Emacs seems like too much
to take on, since almost all packages assume you are using the standard
keys.

> Anyway, I'd love to know why MS dropped Epsilon/Emacs mappings, and I
> was hoping to hear they would be added in again. Yes, I could write a
> bunch of key bindings, but surely someone must have done this already.
> Right?

I can only guess as to why they dropped it. One guess might be that they
felt that if it wasn't a complete (or near-complete) emulation, it would
look bad to advertise it as such, only to have real Emacs users
disappointed. I know they are interested in having more of the Open Source
people adopt Visual Studio for their primary development tool. They also
know that issues such as the one you brought up will be a barrier for
people who have used Emacs/Emacs-compatible editors. I've discussed this
exact point with some of the Program Managers on the VC++ team.

I may play with setting up some Emacs keys in VS.NET, if I have some free
time, although as I mentioned above, I don't want to use them as my primary
editing keystroke set.

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harry

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Lloyd Dupont - 10 Feb 2004 04:46 GMT

what is this Epsilon thing by the way ?

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harry_bosch - 10 Feb 2004 14:11 GMT

> what is this Epsilon thing by the way ?

A text editor for programmers, based somewhat on Emacs. I've never used it,
so I don't know the extent of the similarity. It has its own keystroke
definitions, and Visual Studio used to ship with a preset keyboard mapping
for it.

http://www.lugaru.com

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harry

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Kevin D. Quitt - 10 Feb 2004 17:05 GMT

It has two big advantages over emacs: the extension language is C-like,
not lisp, and the author responds to support questions, usually within
hours. Except for the engine, all of Epsilon is written in the extension
language.

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jdinali - 01 Apr 2004 01:00 GMT

There are some emacs-like bindings + macros for VS.NET here:

http://www.ubertoys.com/

It's not polished by any means, but it does give you a sane CTRL-K (1st zap
to eol, 2nd time delete), standard cursor keys, CTRL-W region copy, etc.

Feel free to post and additions fixes, etc on the forum at ubertoys.

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Kevin D. Quitt - 01 Apr 2004 03:09 GMT

I just use Epsilon for the editing and make VC import changes
automatically. Epsilon-like doesn't help at all compared to having the
extensions and modifications I've made.

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Any word on Epsilon/Emacs key bindings?

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