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.NET Forum / .NET Framework / Internationalization / October 2005fonts
I'm writing an app that will be localized into various cultures and I'm a little confused as to the best way to specify what fonts I should use. The application is trying to follow the XP look and feel style guidelines which specify some particular fonts - Tahoma / Franklin Gothic etc. but the guidelines make no reference to whether these are for English only or for all cultures. It sees like the default "System" font is different for different OS'es - in particular for Japanese,Korean,Simplified Chinese,Traditional Chinese,Arabic,Hebrew it is MS UI Gothic,Gulim,Simsun,PMinglu, Microsoft Sans Serif respectively. When I localize my app, should my fonts match these system fonts and how do the XP style guidelines mutate according to culture? Andrew > It sees like the default "System" font is different for different OS'es - in > particular for Japanese,Korean,Simplified Chinese,Traditional > Chinese,Arabic,Hebrew it is > MS UI Gothic,Gulim,Simsun,PMinglu, Microsoft Sans Serif respectively. In dialogs use the generic "MS Shell Dlg" (if OS < XP) or "MS Shell Dlg 2" (XP or newer). For non-dialogs, use GetStockObject(DEFAULT_GUI_FONT) In general, search MSDN for "MS Shell Dlg", "MS Shell Dlg 2" & DEFAULT_GUI_FONT, and you will find a lot of good articles, with explanation on how, when and why :-) > When I localize my app, should my fonts match these system fonts and how do > the XP style guidelines mutate according to culture? Match system font. You shold use the generic fonts/API above.  SignatureMihai Nita [Microsoft MVP, Windows - SDK] ------------------------------------------ Replace _year_ with _ to get the real email I'm pretty sure that this is not what I want - why should I want different fonts in my dialgs and non-dialogs? On my English XP machine, DEFAULT_GUI_FONT is Microsoft Sans Serif and MS Shell Dlg 2 is Tahoma. To follow the XP style Guildelines my non-dialogs should use Tahoma font too I believe Under Korean XP, DEFAULT_GUI_FONT is Gulim and MS Shell Dlg 2 is Tahoma. In each case I believe I should be using Gulim (although the XP style guidelines are silent on this matter) I haven't found a really good article on font selection - most of them are somewhat incomplete and some even contradict each other. Andrew > > It sees like the default "System" font is different for different OS'es - > in [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > the XP style guidelines mutate according to culture? > Match system font. You shold use the generic fonts/API above. Globalized font selection is a tough problem space, especially if you need to support down-level platforms (i.e., Win9x). If you can, I recommend finding a copy of 'Developing International Software, 2nd Edition' (Microsoft Press). It includes a thorough discussion of international fonts in Windows and runtime font selection. Related online articles and resources: Windows XP/2000 default system font http://www.microsoft.com/globaldev/DrIntl/columns/017/default.mspx#EHAA MLang and Font Linking http://www.microsoft.com/globaldev/DrIntl/columns/005/default.mspx#EEAA World-Ready Software example http://www.microsoft.com/globaldev/tools/wrapp.mspx Garrett McGowan [MSFT Developer International] This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights. Use of included script samples are subject to the terms specified at http://www.microsoft.com/info/cpyright.htm -------------------- >From: <AndrewEames@discussions.microsoft.com> >Subject: Re: fonts >Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 06:37:11 -0700 [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] >> > the XP style guidelines mutate according to culture? >> Match system font. You shold use the generic fonts/API above. I've read these articles and they have some interesting information but neither these articles nor others I have read seem to answer what seems like a very basic question - namely what fonts should I use in my .NET application which is localized and trying to follow the XP style guidelines. (Fortunately I dont care about Win9x) My best *guess* so far is that I should build a base class form that is localized with the fonts below (which I extracted from the Dr. International article) and derive all my forms from this base class form - does this seem reasonable? That would seem to address the "default font" issue but I have no idea how (if at all) the other elements of the XP style guidelines get localized. Another related issue is theming - some localized OSes use the classic theme by default - should my app switch to the classic theme when run in those languages under English XP? My local bookstore didnt have the book you recommended but I guess I'll try and find a copy. Andrew > Globalized font selection is a tough problem space, especially if you need > to support down-level platforms (i.e., Win9x). If you can, I recommend [quoted text clipped - 61 lines] > >> > the XP style guidelines mutate according to culture? > >> Match system font. You shold use the generic fonts/API above. > I'm pretty sure that this is not what I want - why should I want different > fonts in my dialgs and non-dialogs? See Garrett's post. > On my English XP machine, DEFAULT_GUI_FONT is Microsoft Sans Serif and MS > Shell Dlg 2 is Tahoma. To follow the XP style Guildelines my non-dialogs > should use Tahoma font too I believe You are right. It seems I am a bit behind :-) So, correction: see SYSTEM_FONT. From the doc for GetStockObject: DEFAULT_GUI_FONT = Default font for user interface objects such as menus and dialog boxes. This is MS Sans Serif. Compare this with SYSTEM_FONT. SYSTEM_FONT = System font. By default, the system uses the system font to draw menus, dialog box controls, and text. Windows 95/98 and Windows NT: The system font is MS Sans Serif. Windows 2000/XP: The system font is Tahoma ("some even contradict each other" you where saying :-) > Under Korean XP, DEFAULT_GUI_FONT is Gulim and MS Shell Dlg 2 is Tahoma. In > each case I believe I should be using Gulim (although the XP style guidelines > are silent on this matter) For Korean, Tahoma becomes in fact Gulim because of font linking: HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows NT\CurrentVersion\FontLink\SystemLink > I haven't found a really good article on font selection - most of them are > somewhat incomplete and some even contradict each other. As Garrett sais, is a tough problem. All his links will take you to interesting places. And not only is it tough, is is also a moving one. When you think you got it, something new comes out :-) SignatureMihai Nita [Microsoft MVP, Windows - SDK] ------------------------------------------ Replace _year_ with _ to get the real email SYSTEM_FONT is not right either - You can't use SYSTEM_FONT from a .NET application - it claims not to be a truetype font Andrew > > I'm pretty sure that this is not what I want - why should I want different > > fonts in my dialgs and non-dialogs? [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > And not only is it tough, is is also a moving one. > When you think you got it, something new comes out :-) If this is a Windows Form application, then the default font setting should cover all .NET-supported languages. Windows Forms use 'Microsoft Sans Sarif' by default, which is a logical font that maps to the appropriate system font at runtime. Is there a particular reason you are trying to set this programmatically? Garrett McGowan [MSFT Developer International] This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights. Use of included script samples are subject to the terms specified at http://www.microsoft.com/info/cpyright.htm -------------------- >From: AndrewEames@discussions.microsoft.com >Subject: Re: fonts [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] >> And not only is it tough, is is also a moving one. >> When you think you got it, something new comes out :-) Microsoft Sans Serif != Tahoma and the XP style guidelines call for the use of Tahoma under Windows XP Andrew > If this is a Windows Form application, then the default font setting should > cover all .NET-supported languages. Windows Forms use 'Microsoft Sans [quoted text clipped - 62 lines] > >> And not only is it tough, is is also a moving one. > >> When you think you got it, something new comes out :-) If you leave the default font property value set to Microsoft Sans Serif, the Windows Form will automatically map to the correct system font based on the Windows language version. This means that an English language Windows Forms application automatically uses Tahoma on Windows XP. Garrett McGowan [MSFT Developer International] This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights. Use of included script samples are subject to the terms specified at http://www.microsoft.com/info/cpyright.htm -------------------- >From: AndrewEames@discussions.microsoft.com >Subject: Re: fonts [quoted text clipped - 71 lines] >> >> And not only is it tough, is is also a moving one. >> >> When you think you got it, something new comes out :-) I dont believe this is the case - Make a form with 2 labels , one with the default font and with Tahoma and you can see they are different See also http://weblogs.asp.net/kdente/archive/2005/03/13/394499.aspx for a discussion on why this so Andrew > If you leave the default font property value set to Microsoft Sans Serif, > the Windows Form will automatically map to the correct system font based on [quoted text clipped - 90 lines] > >> >> And not only is it tough, is is also a moving one. > >> >> When you think you got it, something new comes out :-) Andrew: You were right, I was wrong. It *should* render using Tahoma on most Windows language versions, but it does not. Add me to the list of people who would love to see this bug fixed. As to your original question of supporting East Asian languages, Microsoft Sans Serif should link appropriately to the related system fonts, without extra work on your side. Garrett McGowan [MSFT Developer International] This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights. Use of included script samples are subject to the terms specified at http://www.microsoft.com/info/cpyright.htm -------------------- >From: AndrewEames@discussions.microsoft.com >Subject: Re: fonts [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] >> >> > >> >> >SYSTEM_FONT is not right either - You can't use SYSTEM_FONT from a NET >> >> >application - it claims not to be a truetype font >> >> > Andrew [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] >> >> >> And not only is it tough, is is also a moving one. >> >> >> When you think you got it, something new comes out :-) Microsoft Sans Serif may be linked to something useful under a localised OS (I haven't checked) but its not when running under English XP. If I am running my application in Japanese under English XP (with the MUI installed) , I presumably want the font to be MS UI Gothic which is not the same as Microsoft Sans Serif Andrew > Andrew: You were right, I was wrong. It *should* render using Tahoma on > most Windows language versions, but it does not. Add me to the list of [quoted text clipped - 129 lines] > >> >> >> And not only is it tough, is is also a moving one. > >> >> >> When you think you got it, something new comes out :-) Yes, I think I see what you're referring to. If any UI strings are left in English on an East Asian language version of a Windows Form, the font-selection bug causes those strings to render in Microsoft Sans Serif. An English Windows XP user would expect to see those English strings rendered in Tahoma, while a Japanese Windows XP user expects to see the English strings rendered in MS UI Gothic. Instead, what you end up with is Japanese strings in MS UI Gothic and English strings in Microsoft Sans Serif. Garrett McGowan [MSFT Developer International] This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights. Use of included script samples are subject to the terms specified at http://www.microsoft.com/info/cpyright.htm -------------------- >From: AndrewEames@discussions.microsoft.com >Subject: Re: fonts [quoted text clipped - 141 lines] >> >> >> >> And not only is it tough, is is also a moving one. >> >> >> >> When you think you got it, something new comes out :-) No that wasn't what I meant. If my application is running in Japanese under English XP, I presumably want the font to be MS UI Gothic. If I just leave the font to be the default Microsoft Sans Serif, I will not get MS UI Gothic - instead my application needs to explicitly set the font to be MS UI Gothic Andrew > Yes, I think I see what you're referring to. If any UI strings are left in > English on an East Asian language version of a Windows Form, the [quoted text clipped - 179 lines] > >> >> >> >> And not only is it tough, is is also a moving one. > >> >> >> >> When you think you got it, something new comes out :-) On an XP/Server 2003 machine, the font linking chasin when you select Japanese as your default system locale and use Microsoft Sans Serif is: MSGOTHIC.TTC,MS UI Gothic gulim.ttc,gulim SimSun.TTC,SimSun mingliu.ttc,PMingLiU So clearly it will link. Michael > No that wasn't what I meant. > [quoted text clipped - 203 lines] >> >> >> >> >> And not only is it tough, is is also a moving one. >> >> >> >> >> When you think you got it, something new comes out :-) But you're assuming the system locale has been changed to Japanese. My application supports "on-the-fly" language switching so it needs to run in Japanese, independent of the current system or user locale. Andrew > On an XP/Server 2003 machine, the font linking chasin when you select > Japanese as your default system locale and use Microsoft Sans Serif is: [quoted text clipped - 215 lines] > >> >> >> >> >> And not only is it tough, is is also a moving one. > >> >> >> >> >> When you think you got it, something new comes out :-) The linking will still work, but any Roman characters in your Japanese UI will be rendered using Microsoft Sans Serif. The Japanese characters will be rendered using MS UI Gothic (via font linking). You may already know this work-around, but you could set your forms to use the system Icon font. This defaults to the true system font, so is Tahoma on non-EA, non-CS language versions of Windows. this.Font = SystemFonts.IconTitleFont; Garrett McGowan [MSFT Developer International] This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights. Use of included script samples are subject to the terms specified at http://www.microsoft.com/info/cpyright.htm -------------------- >From: AndrewEames@discussions.microsoft.com >Subject: Re: fonts [quoted text clipped - 225 lines] >> >> >> >> >> >> And not only is it tough, is is also a moving one. >> >> >> >> >> >> When you think you got it, something new comes out :-) I must be missing something - there is no linking from Microsoft Sans Serif to MS UI Gothic under Windows XP English (system locale English) Andrew > The linking will still work, but any Roman characters in your Japanese UI > will be rendered using Microsoft Sans Serif. The Japanese characters will [quoted text clipped - 272 lines] > >> >> >> >> >> >> And not only is it tough, is is also a moving one. > >> >> >> >> >> >> When you think you got it, something new comes out :-) From your description, it sounds like East Asian language support may not be installed on that system. When you load Regional and Language Options from Control Panel, is the checkbox labeled 'Install files for East Asian languages' on the Languages tab checked? This should cause the SystemLink registry key to be updated with the East Asian fonts. Garrett McGowan [MSFT Developer International] This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights. Use of included script samples are subject to the terms specified at http://www.microsoft.com/info/cpyright.htm -------------------- >From: AndrewEames@discussions.microsoft.com >Subject: Re: fonts [quoted text clipped - 281 lines] >> >> >> >> >> >> >> And not only is it tough, is is also a moving one. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> When you think you got it, something new comes out :-) I'm not sitting at such a machine right now but how could such a link possibly work. My font is Sans Serif, I'm running in English locale under Windows XP but my app could be running in any language - if MS Sans Serif is linked to MS UI Gothic then its going to be wrong for Korean - if its linked to to Gulim, its going to be wrong for Japanese - I think my app needs to explicitly call out the font Andrew > From your description, it sounds like East Asian language support may not > be installed on that system. [quoted text clipped - 281 lines] > >> >> >> >> >> menus > >> >> >> >> >> >> and That is how font linkiing works, Andrew -- your system locale decides the priority order by which ideographs would be selected. If you want to explicitly have a particular language then you must explicitly choose the font you want for the language. But remember that we are talking about Microsoft Sans Serif hre, NOT MS Sans Serif. They are different! SignatureMichKa [Microsoft] NLS Collation/Locale/Keyboard Technical Lead Globalization Infrastructure, Fonts, and Tools Blog: http://blogs.msdn.com/michkap This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights. > I'm not sitting at such a machine right now but how could such a link > possibly work. My font is Sans Serif, I'm running in English locale under [quoted text clipped - 310 lines] >> >> >> >> >> >> menus >> >> >> >> >> >> >> and Well yes - which is *exactly* why font linking is not the solution for localized applications that run in a locale that *isnt* the systen locale. This is why a localized application needs to explicitly call out its font on a per language basis. The Dr International article referenced is a starter on how to do this. However, my original question was how the XP look and feel gets localised - i.e. take the XP style guidelines document and for each font in there, what should the font be for every language. The Dr International article essentially describes what Tahoma should map to but what about the other fonts? Andrew > That is how font linkiing works, Andrew -- your system locale decides the > priority order by which ideographs would be selected. [quoted text clipped - 268 lines] > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Use of included script samples are subject to the terms > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> specified This is a rather large list, can you give the languages you are looking for? SignatureMichKa [Microsoft] NLS Collation/Locale/Keyboard Technical Lead Globalization Infrastructure, Fonts, and Tools Blog: http://blogs.msdn.com/michkap This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights. > Well yes - which is *exactly* why font linking is not the solution for > localized applications that run in a locale that *isnt* the systen locale. [quoted text clipped - 318 lines] >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> terms >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> specified
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