Ahh, I see what you mean. While C# is very quick at compilation, constant
compilation could be a problem.

For some reason, I thought you were talking about background compilation
like VB has. Incremental compilation is an interesting concept, it requires
compiler support as well though, wouldn't it?

its something I may look into if I ever get the compiler idea off the
ground.

The independent route has its advantages, a few anyway.

Whidbey's refactorings are pretty limited, I think there is only 6 or 7
options. However, I don't even use all of them. I use rename and extract
method quite a lot, the encapsulate field is useful at times, but it doesn't
seem to allow specifying get\set granularity, so I end up editing the
results anyway.

I find things like Extract Interface are pretty rarely useful since I tend
to design interfaces and then base concrete classes off of them. And
extracting an interface frm an existing interface isn't terribly difficult,
just copy and paste and a little typing.

I feel VS.NET is much easier to develop in.  Language wise I consider
C#/Java 90% same. Also, it depends on the kind of applications.  To
make it more general say n-tier or i feel the market should move more
towards Web Services (I like to call it NET-Services...
internal/external net services).

I think hands down that C# windows or .Net windows app are much faster
than Java windows app (designed and coded similarly, that is not
optimially coded... keep it simple code....)

Also I really like what MS has done with ADO.NET both ver 1.1 and
ver2.0.

On the application server/business server side I think .Net and Java
execute almost at the same speed.  Of course if you are using a DBMS
this will depend on JDBC and OLE/SQLClient for each (I belive JDBC is
faster in this case...not sure...its been a while).  The great
advantage that Java has on the app server side is it has vendors with
huge base both apps and developers.... such as BEA, IBM WebShpere,
TIBCO - ASP, Oracle App Server, and all the open source stuff aimed at
anything except MS.

The other advantage that Java, Linux, Unix, MAINFRAME, ORACLE, maybe
even MySQL has over .NET and MS is SECURITY.   SECURITY SUCKS IN MS.

If MS can be made secure and I am sure it can (surrounding your
external networks with linux boxes :) etc...)

When it comes to making web-services / net-services i think either way
should be fine but when it comes to development...I would pick MS.NET.
VS.Net and VS 2005 is a great tool, C# is as easy as Java sometimes a
bit better.

on the open source side if the linux installation was easier on the
desktop for other not so tech developers and if there was an
equavilent tool, i would pick linux/xtool? Just because Linux itself
is so much faster (I like Suse and the old Slackware for Mutliple Sym
Proc)

Anyone still doing assembly? :)

enough for now....

-Saras Asnani.

That's not exactly true.  You can set projects to be compiled
incrementally, and csc will only compile those tidbits that have been
changed.

Granted, this isn't the default, but it *does* exist.  Check out a
rather large library like iTextSharp, which is set to incremental build.
 The first compile is long, but subsequent compiles are very fast (and
I have made a few minor tweaks).

<"=?Utf-8?B?Sm9lIExlbnRyaWNoaWE=?=" <jlentrichia(nospam)@hotmail.com>>
wrote:

Because I'm also very much in favour of C#. There's no reason why any
one person can't think they're both great languages on great platforms.
Currently I'm involved in writing C#. I may well go back to Java in my
job, whereupon I'll spend a little less time in these newsgroups and
more time back in the Java groups.

I *think* there are some things that a .NET web-service can produce
which aren't in the standard, but I don't have any examples to hand.
(IIRC, they're things which really should have been in the standard,
but aren't.)

Interactive debugging, certainly. The web server isn't built-in, so
much as there are Tomcat plugins to make it easy. (The debugging is
actually better in Eclipse than current VS.NET, IMO. Things like
generic conditional breakpoints which I don't *think* are supported in
VS.NET.)

WYSIWYG HTML editor - I don't believe so, but there may well be a plug-
in somewhere.

WS proxy generator - again, I don't know, but I'd be very surprised if
a plug-in didn't exist. (In fact, have a look at
http://www.eclipse-plugins.info/eclipse/search.jsp?query=wsdl - it
looks like you should be fine.)

The number of plug-ins for Eclipse is enormous.

That's one of the things I prefer about C#, along with delegates,
events, and the "using" statement.

It's not a matter of sides.  You can be proficient in C#, but also
understand that it isn't always the best tool for the job.  You can also
be good at C#, and be a bigger fan of java.

I think this bit here is the biggest poison that infects MS loonies:

"I think the biggest obstacle for .NET and MS as a whole to overcome is
the ingrained concept in some developers mind that all MS products suck
(not true), and that MS has lots of security issues (somewhat true), and
most of all the general hatred because they have a monopoly on the
desktop/office market.  They also get a bad rap for being "proprietary"
when in actuality they are pushing the envelope and just not waiting for
a panel of "experts" to "standardize" the API they happen to be working
on.  And for this reason Visual Studio has superior support for Web
Services."

Open standards are what drive technology.  Take TCP/IP for example, or
HTTP, HTML, CSS, PNG, etc.  These are things that have a set format or
API, and are *not going to change.*  This basically means that we can
stop worrying about how such and such is supposed to be implemented at
this point in time, and start worrying about making the existing
implementation more efficient, or start worrying about more important
things.

MS is not pushing the envelope by any means when it comes to open
standards.  They've submitted the C# language and got it ISO certified,
but now C# 2.0 is out.  They didn't standardize the framework libraries,
many of which contain patented material (I'm not going to even approach
the validity of software patents).  When you patent something, you're
trying to make sure that you have a legal monopoly on selling that item
for a set amount of time.  It is a version of "proprietary."

The panel of "experts" that you refer to is what you rely on every day.
 If it weren't for these "experts," then you'd have a number of
different servers that speak in different languages, and may or may not
understand each other.  You'd be able to talk to IIS, for instance, but
maybe not access Hotmail (which, I believe, is still based on BSD).
Then again, these "experts" were around when the industry started, or
they built the infrastructure for the industry themselves.  Let's just
call them "experts," because they don't deserve any more respect than
that.  </sarcasm>

Visual Studio is a good tool, no doubt about it.  Does it, however, work
in the same way with mono?  Apache?  The problem of creating an end-all
tool like Visual Studio, as easy to use as it is, is that you've got
platform lock.  Someone else is making the decision for you, as to what
web server you're going to use, or what operating system you are going
to run.  That is, if you really really want to use visual studio.  For
those who don't want to be confined to an extremely small set of
platforms, they choose to go with a tool that promises to work with many.

Eclipse, for instance, is open sourced.  It has a board-standardized
plugin API, and a number of plugins exist for it.  Eclipse, in effect,
has much more flexibility and extensibility than Visual Studio does.  It
doesn't have an embedded WYSIWYG HTML editor, nor does it seamlessly
integrate with web servers by default.  It does have a java debugger,
though.  Everything else is handled by plugins, and I'm certain that
there are HTML plugins, web service plugins, visual form editing tools,
UML, etc.

One last thing, just an FYI, to tell the truth.  It isn't the web server
that has debugging built in.  When you're debugging a web service in
.NET, or ASP.NET, you're interacting with the .NET runtime, not the web
server.  When the web server sees that you're requesting a .NET type
page, it passes the request off to the runtime, which processes the
request itself.  In this respect, yes, you can debug java web servlets
and services, since you can debug through the virtual machine.

Sorry...  this is a bit of a rant, but astroturfing without knowing both
sides of the equation is rather frustrating.