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.NET Forum / .NET Framework / New Users / November 2006.NET 3.0 and XP?
I'm planning to get a new laptop the beginning of 2007. I want an XP laptop rather than Vista. Mainly because I have the feeling Vista will not run much of the software I'm running now in XP. I guess MS has some type of tool to verify your software but I have a lot of smaller programs that MS doesn't know about and therefore can't verify. At the least, Vista will be full of errors. The XP setup I have now works and I'd like to keep it. Here's a couple of questions I have: 1.) I want to develop for the .NET 3.0 framework, which is just an install onto XP. But will I still have full access to all of the WPF features that are seen in Vista? In other words, will 3D, glass, curved windows, etc all be supported on XP? 2.) One other thing, I don't know of any companies planning to write software for Vista or .NET 3.0. It seems once you acquire a good set of .NET 3.0 skills, you have no where to use them (except at home on your own time of course). Comments? Thanks, Brett > I'm planning to get a new laptop the beginning of 2007. I want an XP > laptop rather than Vista. Mainly because I have the feeling Vista will [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > least, Vista will be full of errors. The XP setup I have now works and > I'd like to keep it. I would tend to disagree about your assertion that many apps won't run under Vista, but I do agree that if it ain't broke, don't fix it. > Here's a couple of questions I have: > > 1.) I want to develop for the .NET 3.0 framework, which is just an > install onto XP. But will I still have full access to all of the WPF > features that are seen in Vista? In other words, will 3D, glass, > curved windows, etc all be supported on XP? Probably not. > 2.) One other thing, I don't know of any companies planning to write > software for Vista or .NET 3.0. It seems once you acquire a good set > of .NET 3.0 skills, you have no where to use them (except at home on > your own time of course). Comments? There really isn't much (if any) .NET 3.0 development going on yet. 2.0 is still relativley new and you won't see wide-scale 3.0 development for a while. > Thanks, > Brett > I'm planning to get a new laptop the beginning of 2007. I want an XP > laptop rather than Vista. Mainly because I have the feeling Vista [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > features that are seen in Vista? In other words, will 3D, glass, > curved windows, etc all be supported on XP? WPF works identically on XP and Vista. Keep in mind though - the Vista GUI is NOT WPF. Rather, it's dozens of new native Win32 controls and 100's of new windows features built into GDI32 and USER32. > 2.) One other thing, I don't know of any companies planning to write > software for Vista or .NET 3.0. It seems once you acquire a good set > of .NET 3.0 skills, you have no where to use them (except at home on > your own time of course). Comments? WPF is bleeding edge right now, so adopters will be few and far between until some "killer apps" for WPF hit the streets and everyone jumps on board. -cd > WPF works identically on XP and Vista. > > Keep in mind though - the Vista GUI is NOT WPF. Rather, it's dozens of new > native Win32 controls and 100's of new windows features built into GDI32 and > USER32. Many of the demonstrations I've seen with WPF show the windows using 3D, glass, etc. If I install .NET 3.0 on XP, which presentation features will I not be able to use because they are Vista only? > WPF is bleeding edge right now, so adopters will be few and far between > until some "killer apps" for WPF hit the streets and everyone jumps on > board. Continue learning WPF is still a good strategy...hoping one day you can apply those skills in the industry. It just seems chicking/egg at this point. LINQ will be extremely useful but how will people handle the very likely large resistance by their company to 3.0 upgrading? For those learning .NET 3.0, how are you going about it (work, home, etc)? Does any one have prospects of using it in production code? Thanks, Brett >> WPF works identically on XP and Vista. >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > 3D, glass, etc. If I install .NET 3.0 on XP, which presentation > features will I not be able to use because they are Vista only? 3D = WPF, Glass = Vista. I can't tell you exactly what the dividing line is. WPF is all based on Styles, and Vista has a different set of default styles than XP. If your WPF is based entirely on your own styles, it will look identical on XP or Vista, if I understand things correctly. >> WPF is bleeding edge right now, so adopters will be few and far >> between until some "killer apps" for WPF hit the streets and [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > For those learning .NET 3.0, how are you going about it (work, home, > etc)? Does any one have prospects of using it in production code? I'm not using it in production code yet, but I expect to be using WCF in the next couple months. WPF and Workflow will come in time. I have no use for CardSpace - at least not yet. -cd Thanks Carl. I guess in regards to which OS should I get for a new laptop, that decision will be independent of what I want to develop for (2.0 or 3.0). The OS decision seems more personal rather than motivated by what is the best market. If I want Vista bells and whistles and feel ok about any large potential errors usually inherit with a new OS, Vista should be fine. If I want a guarentee of stability and that everything I have installed now will continue working, stay with XP. It doesn't matter in the way of development. In reply to Scott, I'll have to stay with my original opinion about incompatibility on Vista. There are already antivirus and firewall apps that do not work on Vista. Since I have many smaller unpopular apps, I'll never know if they work until I take the plunge. That's just to risky for me. I'm already using many of the programs listed here: http://www.iexbeta.com/wiki/index.php/Windows_Vista_Software_Compatibility_List# Heavy_problems.2C_currently_incompatible. Brett Does any one know if it is possible to remote desktop into Vista from XP and vice versa? Thanks, Brett > Does any one know if it is possible to remote desktop into Vista from > XP and vice versa? Yes and Yes. -cd > Keep in mind though - the Vista GUI is NOT WPF. Rather, it's dozens of > new native Win32 controls and 100's of new windows features built into > GDI32 and USER32. So, if Vista's native Win32 controls are so good, why should anyone being using WPF? What's it so good for? Massimo > So, if Vista's native Win32 controls are so good, why should anyone being > using WPF? What's it so good for? Writing for WPF is a lot easier than native Vista libraries, which are also not managed. >> So, if Vista's native Win32 controls are so good, why should anyone >> being using WPF? What's it so good for? > > Writing for WPF is a lot easier than native Vista libraries, which are > also not managed. So it's like using Windows Forms instead of native Win32 APIs? Ok. But I still don't understand why even Microsoft is not using .NET and purely managed code in its own products... Massimo All the current major MS legacy products (Windows Desktop & Server, SQL, SMS, Exchange, Office) have codebases that predate, and in some cases by years, the .NET 2.0 framework. Replacing these codebases will take a while. The newer products, such as WSUS are indeed written in .NET. The biggest problem with .NET is that net 1.0 applications are not, in general, forward compatible with .NET 2.0. Fortunately, it appears that .NET 2.0 apps will be able to run under .NET 3.0, especially since .NET 3.0 installs the .NET 2.0 framework. Hopefully this is an indication MS will freeze the basic .NET 2.0 framework API and add features via new assemblies. As for whether or not an OS can be written entirely in managed code, the answer is a resounding NO. At some point, every OS must talk to the hardware. The portion that talks to the hardware by its very nature is unmanaged. However, it is possible to write an OS that is completely managed (and secure, by the way) except for the hardware drivers. Digital Equiment Corporation did just this feat back in the 70s with VMS. (OpenVMS is still around and being sold by HP.) Can products such as SQL, SMS, Exchange, and Office be written entirely in managed code? The answer is YES. The two issues with moving them to managed code is a combination of a large legacy codebase as well as the performance implications of managed code. Garbage Collectors can be very, very expensive, though the GC in .NET strikes a good balance between keeping the available, contiguous memory high and performance. Mike Ober. > >> So, if Vista's native Win32 controls are so good, why should anyone > >> being using WPF? What's it so good for? [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Massimo Right you are Michael. But there are efforts underway at MS Research. Check out the Singularity project: http://research.microsoft.com/os/singularity/ http://channel9.msdn.com/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=68302 (this is a great video by the way) Brett Speaking of OpenVMS by DEC. Ironically, the guys who developed that went to DEC and told them they thought they could get OpenVMS to run on a desktop computer (it ran on a minicomputer, the DEC VAX, for those of you don't know). DEC told them they didn't see a market for it. So they quit and went to work for Microsoft. The final product was called "Windows NT". Robin S. ------------------------- > All the current major MS legacy products (Windows Desktop & Server, SQL, > SMS, Exchange, Office) have codebases that predate, and in some cases by [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] >> >> Massimo DEC never did understand the micro-computer revolution. They understood that minis could replace a low end mainframes, but not that micros could replace low end minis. Compaq, who bought DEC, and HP, who bought Compaq have yet to figure out what to do with VMS. Mike. > Speaking of OpenVMS by DEC. Ironically, the guys who developed that > went to DEC and told them they thought they could get OpenVMS to run [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > >> > >> Massimo You're right. I'm actually surprised they still sell OpenVMS, though. I worked on DEC Vax's for years; I loved how easy it was to cluster the machines, run batch jobs, etc. There are probably even some PDP-11's out there still running today. Robin S. > DEC never did understand the micro-computer revolution. They understood > that minis could replace a low end mainframes, but not that micros could [quoted text clipped - 71 lines] >> >> >> >> Massimo Open VMS is on version 8.3 and runs on the Alpha and Itanium processors. After watching the Channel9 video about managed OS's, it seems to me that MS might actually be better off simply buying VMS from HP and incorporating it into a future version of Windows. (My boss would have a heart attack if MS did this.) Mike. > You're right. I'm actually surprised they still sell OpenVMS, though. > I worked on DEC Vax's for years; I loved how easy it was to cluster [quoted text clipped - 78 lines] > >> >> > >> >> Massimo Gosh, I didn't know they still sold Alphas. Makes me feel all nostalgic. I was surprised that when MS developed NT using VMS, they didn't incorporate more of its functions in it. Some stuff looks so much like VMS, it's spooky -- ACLs and the backup/restore stuff come straight to mind. You're right, they should have incorporated more. Somehow, I don't think they're all that open to the idea. :-D Robin S. > Open VMS is on version 8.3 and runs on the Alpha and Itanium processors. > After watching the Channel9 video about managed OS's, it seems to me that [quoted text clipped - 104 lines] >> >> >> >> >> >> Massimo According to the letter we have from HP, the last Alpha sale order will be accepted on Dec 30, 2006. I think the reason more of VMS didn't end up in NT was a combination of licensing and processor power. Remember, the 80386 processor wasn't nearly as powerful as a VAX processor. As for the licensing, DEC did threaten to sue MS over NT which is why DEC became the "preferred" NT support source for a while. Mike. > Gosh, I didn't know they still sold Alphas. Makes me feel all nostalgic. > [quoted text clipped - 119 lines] >>> >> >> >>> >> >> Massimo Well, that's the last of an era. It doesn't surprise me about the litigation threat. Sort of Dog-in-the-manger of them -- we don't want to develop it for the desktop, and don't want you to, either. As if it would somehow slow down the deterioration of their sales. The whole thing is pretty interesting! Thanks for the info. I haven't talked to anyone in a long time who's heard of DEC or Vaxes or VMS. Robin S. > According to the letter we have from HP, the last Alpha sale order will be > accepted on Dec 30, 2006. [quoted text clipped - 133 lines] >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> Massimo Free MagazinesGet these publications absolutely FREE for up to 12 months. There are no hidden fees and no obligation. Simply choose a title, complete the application form and submit it. Read more ...
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