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.NET Forum / .NET Framework / New Users / January 2006VS.NET 2005 hotfixes?
Hi, I've read there are some VS.NET 2005 hotfixes out there, but I can't find them. apparently You must first call Microsoft to obtain them? Does anybody knows where I can download them? thanks a lot in advance, Pieter > Hi, > > I've read there are some VS.NET 2005 hotfixes out there, but I can't > find them. apparently You must first call Microsoft to obtain them? > > Does anybody knows where I can download them? Call PSS for your country and ask them for the hotfix for the problem you're having. That's the policy MS still uses for these kind of things, and it's a shame, because they said they would change and do something about it. FB  Signature------------------------------------------------------------------------ Get LLBLGen Pro, productive O/R mapping for .NET: http://www.llblgen.com My .NET blog: http://weblogs.asp.net/fbouma Microsoft MVP (C#) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ And there isn't anybody who putted them all on a site/blog somewhere? :-( >> Hi, >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > FB Noone else on earth is authorized toi distribute those Hotfixes. Honestly, would you trust a hotfix downloaded from any site other than Microsoft's? Signature<i><b>RageInTheMachine9532</b></i><font size="-2"> "<i>...a pungent, ghastly, stinky piece of cheese!</i>" <b>-- The Roaming Gnome</b></font> > And there isn't anybody who putted them all on a site/blog somewhere? :-( > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > > > FB > Call PSS for your country and ask them for the hotfix for the problem > you're having. That's the policy MS still uses for these kind of > things, and it's a shame, because they said they would change and do > something about it. I have seen this discussion once even in real live. :-) I don't think that these newsgroups are the place to get that changed. However, I really don't understand that policy as well. It has gives for me always the idea that there is a real bookkeeper (penny wise pound foolish) on that position at Microsoft. Cor I agree that this is a money decision, but that does not make it unwise. Before something is sent out into the field, it out to be fully tested. This is true both for major releases and for patches. Let's imagine this new world: Open release of patches: Pros: 1. Disengage PSS from patch release 2. Less bitching about how to get patches in the newsgroups Cons: 1. People install patches they do not need which alter their system enough to munge their code - extra PSS time 2. Non regression tested patches into the wild, supported by a Microsoft mechanism - extra PSS time 3. More bitching about how patches broke things in the newsgroups In the end, the one thing that would not change is the bitching. :-) The safer approach is the one taken. When you have time to fully regression test, you release; otherwise, you keep it under wraps and ensure people really need it. SignatureGregory A. Beamer MVP; MCP: +I, SE, SD, DBA *************************** Think Outside the Box! *************************** > > Call PSS for your country and ask them for the hotfix for the problem > > you're having. That's the policy MS still uses for these kind of [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Cor > The safer approach is the one taken. When you have time to fully > regression > test, you release; otherwise, you keep it under wraps and ensure people > really need it. So why didn't Microsoft use this approach for Visual Studio .NET 2005 in the first place? :-) Marketing versus development? One is fighting to make sure the market does not react negatively. One wants to make sure the software is done. I am not saying it is right, but a product does eventually have to release (somewhere between "good enough" and perfect). :-) If you have one of the issues mentioned in one of the KBs, call PSS. They will not charge if your issue is fixed by the patches. The reason they ask for charge info is many people waste their time. Right or wrong, it is the case. :-) SignatureGregory A. Beamer MVP; MCP: +I, SE, SD, DBA ************************************************* Think outside the box! ************************************************* >> The safer approach is the one taken. When you have time to fully >> regression [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > So why didn't Microsoft use this approach for Visual Studio .NET 2005 in > the first place? :-) Gregory, See my reply on your message. The message was longer first however that could be misunderstood. I think that it answers as well this reply from you. In that you see that I not completely disagree with you. (If you don't understand what I mean than I will explain that a little bit more in depth) Cor Yes, it would be much better to have a knee jerk reaction and release patches that have not been fully regression tested ... and then have to support any munging the patch did for users who did not even need the patch in the first place. While I do not agree with everything MS does, I am not sure freely issuing patches is the best option. Yes, it is a pain to call PSS, but it is free if you actually have the problem described. And, calling PSS sets it up where people do not install something they do not actually need while allowing MS to release for those who do. SignatureGregory A. Beamer MVP; MCP: +I, SE, SD, DBA *************************** Think Outside the Box! *************************** > > Hi, > > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > FB Gregory. There is not only black and white, there are a lot of colours between those. Cor I agree with you. There are many shades as well as many hues. I think MS takes the correct path in many instances and the incorrect in others. I agree with them on erring on the side of caution. I wish they took that approach with betas. :-) SignatureGregory A. Beamer MVP; MCP: +I, SE, SD, DBA ************************************************* Think outside the box! ************************************************* > Gregory. > > There is not only black and white, there are a lot of colours between > those. > > Cor > Yes, it is a pain to call PSS, but it is free if you actually have the > problem described. On the phone, Microsoft disagreed with you. When I phoned PSS, they would not even let me state the Knowledge Base article numbers whose hotfixes I wanted, unless I first paid for a support incident. Even on the web, Microsoft disagrees with you. In some Knowledge Base articles, Microsoft says that if the designated hotfix fixes all of your problems then there's no fee. If the designated hotfix fixes some of your problems but leaves other Microsoft bugs unchanged (or even changed), then even the designated hotfix doesn't meet the conditions for the assertion about being free. >> Yes, it is a pain to call PSS, but it is free if you actually have the >> problem described. > > On the phone, Microsoft disagreed with you. When I phoned PSS, they would > not even let me state the Knowledge Base article numbers whose hotfixes I > wanted, unless I first paid for a support incident. They take the info first. I am not sure I agree with this 100%, but it guarantees payment if you are the one at fault. If your issue is fixed by the patch, the charge will not go through. Not the best situation always, but it has always worked for me when I called on company business outside of free MSDN calls. > Even on the web, Microsoft disagrees with you. In some Knowledge Base > articles, Microsoft says that if the designated hotfix fixes all of your > problems then there's no fee. If the designated hotfix fixes some of your > problems but leaves other Microsoft bugs unchanged (or even changed), then > even the designated hotfix doesn't meet the conditions for the assertion > about being free. If the problem you are calling about is fixed, you will not be charged. You may be asked for payment information, but not charged. If you ramble on about other issues, it is possible you will be charged. For the record, I am NOT a Microsoft employee. I have been awarded MVP status, but I am more than willing to bite the hand that feeds me if it makes a better product. I don't mind eating some of the dogfood, but do not make me have to state it is steak. Having said that, I find that many people do not troubleshoot their own stuff prior to complaining or asking questions. I answer a great many questions here, as well as from friends (mostly on IM). A great number are easily googled or found in MS documentation. I am sure PSS has the same issue. If you find a problem that is solved by a patch, call PSS and stay on the issue at hand; if you are right, no charge. If you ramble into how to place an ObjectDataSource on a page, it is your dime. Yes, I am being overly simplistic, but it happens. "While I have you on the phone" = $. I have great experience with PSS, when I have to call them. If I can google or ask someone, I avoid the call. When I call, it is generally a patch issue (even I have called on something that was not MS's fault). The site is checked by MS legal and protects MS. I do not fault them for this, although I wish we could stop suing each other in this country (and world?). Bottom line: If you are sure (or reasonably sure) you have an issue fixed by a patch, make the call and you will not be charged. You will be asked for payment info, but they will not charge. If I am incorrect, let me know. SignatureGregory A. Beamer MVP; MCP: +I, SE, SD, DBA ************************************************* Think outside the box! ************************************************* > >> Yes, it is a pain to call PSS, but it is free if you actually have > the >> problem described. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > situation always, but it has always worked for me when I called on > company business outside of free MSDN calls. you will get charged, your payment will be canceled later on or you'll get your money back if it took too long and hte payment fell through. Nevertheless this is very awkward for a single reason: the customer experiences a strange thing with their product. The least they can do is try to help FIRST. It's a customer for crying out loud. The customer however is in a bad position: what if the issue the customer runs into isn't a bug? Then the customer WILL get charged! But the lame thing is: the customer doesn't know that and also doesn't decide this. MS does. So if MS finds it not a bug, you'll get charged. Every product you buy comes with warranty. Not MS software. If you think it's broken, you always have to be prepared to pay. You sell your own software for a living? If so, ask yourself if your customers are willing to pay you first and then you look into their bugreports and if it's a bug you pay them back and if it's not a bug but their fault, you charge them for a couple of hundred dollars. If you think that's a great way to deal with your customers, I hope I'll never become a customer of yours. > Having said that, I find that many people do not troubleshoot their > own stuff prior to complaining or asking questions. I answer a great [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > your dime. Yes, I am being overly simplistic, but it happens. "While > I have you on the phone" = $. hey, customer support means supporting customers. If you don't want to support customers, simply don't setup customer support facilities. It's as simple as that. And before you start claiming MS customer support is top notch: it's beyond horrible. I haven't ever come across one software company who sat on patches for 2.5 years without publicly releasing them and got away with it. Another example? There are still un-released VB6 patches. The problem is, if you want them, you have to pay, no matter what. Isn't that a great way of dealing with customers? Why not put up a darn webpage and let the customer download the stuff tehmselves? MS apparently finds OFFICE users clever enough to update their systems by themselves, however DEVELOPERS are apparently too stupid to patch their own systems so they have to jump through hoops to get a patch. > I have great experience with PSS, when I have to call them. If I can > google or ask someone, I avoid the call. When I call, it is generally > a patch issue (even I have called on something that was not MS's > fault). Using PSS from outside the USA isn't that great. To say the least. > The site is checked by MS legal and protects MS. I do not fault them > for this, although I wish we could stop suing each other in this > country (and world?). As a customer, I don't see why legal stuff is my problem. Look at it this way: a customer buys a license to a MS product. The customer runs into a problem. The customer then tries to ask MS for an update/fix for that problem. MS put up a huge wall to keep that customer out. Most other software vendors have download sites for patches. Oh, MS has those too, just not for developer software, because developers apparently aren't required to update the software they live in for 8-10 hours A DAY. > Bottom line: If you are sure (or reasonably sure) you have an issue > fixed by a patch, make the call and you will not be charged. You will > be asked for payment info, but they will not charge. If I am > incorrect, let me know. what's a bug is decided by MS. So if you get charged or not is decided by MS. If I buy a radio in a radio store I get a warranty on it, say 1 year. If I find a feature not working as expected, I go back to the radio store and they definitely won't ask me to pay up first or pull a credit card before I even have to ability to speak up. In fact, if I say to the radio store: something is broken, they fix it for me, and most radio stores have policies that an unhappy customer is helped, perhaps with a free new one, no matter what. You know why? Because a happy customer stays with the company, and it's much cheaper to KEEP a customer than to get it back once he's gone to the competition. that last word is key here. As soon as there's firm competition on the developertools market, MS will change the policy, however they apparently don't have to. FB Signature------------------------------------------------------------------------ Get LLBLGen Pro, productive O/R mapping for .NET: http://www.llblgen.com My .NET blog: http://weblogs.asp.net/fbouma Microsoft MVP (C#) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > you will get charged, your payment will be canceled later on or you'll > get your money back if it took too long and hte payment fell through. In Spain Microsoft does not require to provide payment information if you tell in advance that you are going to request a hotfix described in a KB article. I have done that several times.... SignatureBest regards, Carlos J. Quintero MZ-Tools: Productivity add-ins for Visual Studio 2005, Visual Studio .NET, VB6, VB5 and VBA You can code, design and document much faster in VB.NET, C#, C++ or VJ# Free resources for add-in developers: http://www.mztools.com Frans, > You sell your own software for a living? If so, ask yourself if your > customers are willing to pay you first and then you look into their > bugreports and if it's a bug you pay them back and if it's not a bug > but their fault, you charge them for a couple of hundred dollars. This has always been in a kind of way as this in the standard software agreements in Holland (Fenit voorwaarden). I did not check the last one so I am not sure if it is still there. However this is seldom fulfilled, the relation with the client is more important than those few bucks. More important (as I meant as well with black and white message) . A software developer is in my opinion not a standard customer. Cor > On the phone, Microsoft disagreed with you. When I phoned PSS, they would > not even let me state the Knowledge Base article numbers whose hotfixes I > wanted, unless I first paid for a support incident. I have followed the procedure Call by phone, Point them to the KB article and Request the fix several times without being charged and in a couple of hours I was sent the download URL for the fix by e-mail. SignatureBest regards, Carlos J. Quintero MZ-Tools: Productivity add-ins for Visual Studio 2005, Visual Studio .NET, VB6, VB5 and VBA You can code, design and document much faster in VB.NET, C#, C++ or VJ# Free resources for add-in developers: http://www.mztools.com >> On the phone, Microsoft disagreed with you. When I phoned PSS, they >> would not even let me state the Knowledge Base article numbers whose [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > and Request the fix several times without being charged and in a couple of > hours I was sent the download URL for the fix by e-mail. Microsoft would not even let me state the KB article numbers unless I paid first. Other participants in this thread have indicated that in some other countries Microsoft operates the same way as the country where you live, and in some other countries Microsoft operates the same way as the country where I live. Aside from that, if a patch only fixes the Microsoft bug that the KB article says it might fix, but still leaves other Microsoft bugs unchanged as expected (or maybe even changed), then even the English-language versions of the KB articles exclude these situations from getting refunds of the fees. > > On the phone, Microsoft disagreed with you. When I phoned PSS, > > they would not even let me state the Knowledge Base article numbers [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > in a couple of hours I was sent the download URL for the fix by > e-mail. You make one mistake: you already know the KB article. Most of the time though, the KB article number isn't known and a user runs into a problem. What to do? If its his fault, he will pay up, so better keep low and accept it till a service pack is released... Also remember that not all known bugs are publicly listed with KB articles: often a KB article is made internally but not publicly published until the service pack the patch is in is released. FB Signature------------------------------------------------------------------------ Get LLBLGen Pro, productive O/R mapping for .NET: http://www.llblgen.com My .NET blog: http://weblogs.asp.net/fbouma Microsoft MVP (C#) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > You make one mistake: you already know the KB article. Most of the > time though, the KB article number isn't known and a user runs into a [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > articles: often a KB article is made internally but not publicly > published until the service pack the patch is in is released. As a user I always do some investigation before calling MS support or someone else. I search in Google, MSDN KB, etc. As MVPs we can even search in the KB for partners with more articles that the public KB, although certainly it would be better to have access to the internal MS database with all issues. Most (or all) of the times I have found a KB article with the hotfix. And as MVP we can also write KB articles (community solutions) to expose/document bugs (without the hotfix), I have written more than 40 with bugs in the extensibility model of VS.NET and some workarounds in the last couple of years and they have helped to a lot of developers. At the very least, the user will know that the problem is not his code... SignatureBest regards, Carlos J. Quintero MZ-Tools: Productivity add-ins for Visual Studio 2005, Visual Studio .NET, VB6, VB5 and VBA You can code, design and document much faster in VB.NET, C#, C++ or VJ# Free resources for add-in developers: http://www.mztools.com > Yes, it would be much better to have a knee jerk reaction and release > patches that have not been fully regression tested ... and then have [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > calling PSS sets it up where people do not install something they do > not actually need while allowing MS to release for those who do. Which part of 'HOTfix' don't you understand? :). Oh, and calling PSS isn't free in some countries: not moneywise and also not timewise. Try getting a patch from ireland, it's likely you end up in shanghai and have to wait at least 3 days. Furthermore, for vs.net 2003 a lot of hotfixes exist, some are over 2 years old(!) and are never released to the public. If they need more than 2 years of regression testing, I'm not sure what they're doing but I think they need to fix some things internally first. ps: tell me, why does the office group release rollups from time to time? FB Signature------------------------------------------------------------------------ Get LLBLGen Pro, productive O/R mapping for .NET: http://www.llblgen.com My .NET blog: http://weblogs.asp.net/fbouma Microsoft MVP (C#) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Or is there anywhere out there a list with all the patches/hotfixes that exists? so we know which of the numerous bugs are alreaddy fixed? > Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Pieter Hi Pieter, > You must first call Microsoft to obtain them? Yes, once you know the hotfix, you request it calling by phone, you won´t be charged. > Does anybody knows where I can download them? You can search in the KB. Here is the list for VS.NET (2002/2003): http://support.microsoft.com/search/default.aspx?catalog=LCID=1033&query=Visual+ Studio+.NET+hotfix&x=10&y=6 SignatureBest regards, Carlos J. Quintero MZ-Tools: Productivity add-ins for Visual Studio 2005, Visual Studio .NET, VB6, VB5 and VBA You can code, design and document much faster in VB.NET, C#, C++ or VJ# Free resources for add-in developers: http://www.mztools.com > Hi Pieter, > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > http://support.microsoft.com/search/default.aspx?catalog=LCID=1033&que > ry=Visual+Studio+.NET+hotfix&x=10&y=6 That list is way out-dated. A lot of the hotfixes are never made public. But to recap: Soma promissed me in person they would put up a list of known issues and possible workarounds or KB article links and would look into making hotfixes public if possible. Nothing of that has been realized yet. It must be really hard to add a couple of pages to that MSDN websystem apparently. FB Signature------------------------------------------------------------------------ Get LLBLGen Pro, productive O/R mapping for .NET: http://www.llblgen.com My .NET blog: http://weblogs.asp.net/fbouma Microsoft MVP (C#) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Hi Frans, I agree with you that hotfixes are not a solution and I share your frustration. The fact that the first VS.NET 2003 Service pack will be released in 2006 says it all... SignatureBest regards, Carlos J. Quintero MZ-Tools: Productivity add-ins for Visual Studio 2005, Visual Studio .NET, VB6, VB5 and VBA You can code, design and document much faster in VB.NET, C#, C++ or VJ# Free resources for add-in developers: http://www.mztools.com > But to recap: Soma promissed me in person they would put up a list of > known issues and possible workarounds or KB article links and would [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > FB Carlos, > I agree with you that hotfixes are not a solution and I share your > frustration. The fact that the first VS.NET 2003 Service pack will be > released in 2006 says it all... I don't think that we should compare the Version 2003 with Version 2005. Version 2003 was in my opinion in fact not much more than a servicepack for Version 2002. Version 2003 does in fact not have much essential bugs which could not be solved by a better patch politic. It is not for nothing that the internal name for 2003 is 7.1 while version 2005 is 8.0 Just my opinion, Cor > Version 2003 was in my opinion in fact not much more than a servicepack > for Version 2002. Then why did Microsoft release a SP1 for VS.NET 2002 much after releasing VS.NET 2003? ;-) SignatureBest regards, Carlos J. Quintero MZ-Tools: Productivity add-ins for Visual Studio 2005, Visual Studio .NET, VB6, VB5 and VBA You can code, design and document much faster in VB.NET, C#, C++ or VJ# Free resources for add-in developers: http://www.mztools.com Carlos, > Then why did Microsoft release a SP1 for VS.NET 2002 much after releasing > VS.NET 2003? ;-) Do you know the answer? :-)) It is really a mystery for me, as you know that AFAIK the update offer was only not done to VB2002 standard edition users. (Or maybe it is for those who did not see that update offer). Cor > Do you know the answer? > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > only not done to VB2002 standard edition users. (Or maybe it is for those > who did not see that update offer). A crazy update policy for VS.NET 2002/2003, I guess, but I don´t know the reasons. About VS 2005 SP1 in the first half of 2006, 1) It would be the normal thing and 2) Maybe even MS feels that the RTM was released a bit ahead of time. SignatureBest regards, Carlos J. Quintero MZ-Tools: Productivity add-ins for Visual Studio 2005, Visual Studio .NET, VB6, VB5 and VBA You can code, design and document much faster in VB.NET, C#, C++ or VJ# Free resources for add-in developers: http://www.mztools.com > Carlos, > > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Version 2003 does in fact not have much essential bugs which could > not be solved by a better patch politic. 1) dll locking by ide during compilation causing compilation to terminate. KB article 887818. Created october 2004 2) usercontrols removed from forms at random. KB article 842706. Created June 2004. And there are some other major issues which a lot of us have run into almost daily. The two mentioned above are more than a year old. Because they're so major, it's very strange they're still not released to the public. MS says: 'not a lot ask for these patches so apparently not a lot want them', but I think a lot of de vs.net users out there simply don't know you can ask for a patch and that these patches exist. A lot of time and misery would have been solved if MS would have released a roll up of hotfixes every 3 months. FB Signature------------------------------------------------------------------------ Get LLBLGen Pro, productive O/R mapping for .NET: http://www.llblgen.com My .NET blog: http://weblogs.asp.net/fbouma Microsoft MVP (C#) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Frans, You did not quote my message completely, do I have to understand that you don't agree with this text in my message. >Version 2003 does in fact not have much essential bugs which could not be >solved by a better patch politic. I assume therefore that you agree completely with what Gregory wrote about this subject and that the current procedures fulfil your needs. Cor >> Carlos, >> > [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > FB > Frans, > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I assume therefore that you agree completely with what Gregory wrote > about this subject and that the current procedures fulfil your needs. I read in your statement that you find that vs.net doesn't have that much bugs which would qualify a public release of a patch. FB > Cor > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > A lot of time and misery would have been solved if MS would have > > released a roll up of hotfixes every 3 months. Signature------------------------------------------------------------------------ Get LLBLGen Pro, productive O/R mapping for .NET: http://www.llblgen.com My .NET blog: http://weblogs.asp.net/fbouma Microsoft MVP (C#) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Frans Bouma schreef in bericht >> Frans, >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > I read in your statement that you find that vs.net doesn't have that > much bugs which would qualify a public release of a patch. Than I wrote it wrong or you have read it wrong. I try to tell that in my opinion a better patch policy can prevent that there would be needed a complete service soon with only a small amount of patches. However you are free to disagree that with me of course. Cor > A lot of time and misery would have been solved if MS would have > released a roll up of hotfixes every 3 months. I agree 100% on this. SignatureBest regards, Carlos J. Quintero MZ-Tools: Productivity add-ins for Visual Studio 2005, Visual Studio .NET, VB6, VB5 and VBA You can code, design and document much faster in VB.NET, C#, C++ or VJ# Free resources for add-in developers: http://www.mztools.com Free MagazinesGet these publications absolutely FREE for up to 12 months. There are no hidden fees and no obligation. Simply choose a title, complete the application form and submit it. Read more ...
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