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.NET Forum / .NET Framework / New Users / July 2005Features of C#.NET
Hi all, I am New to this group and concept too. Can anyone tell me about drawbacks of java overcomed by .NET  SignatureRegards, -a .NET developer Which drawbacks? SignatureBest regards, Carlos J. Quintero MZ-Tools: Productivity add-ins for Visual Studio .NET, VB6, VB5 and VBA You can code, design and document much faster. Free resources for add-in developers: http://www.mztools.com > Hi all, > > I am New to this group and concept too. > > Can anyone tell me about drawbacks of java overcomed by .NET > Which drawbacks? I think that was part of the question ;) Personally (and I know I will create flame, but read the argument): Java is bad, C# is good ^_^ It could be demonstrated with the simple following scenario. write a Java program (which does something). write the same program in C#. - compare size of code (hence the time you will spend on it and the potential quantity of bug), you will see C# is leaner. - compare performance, you will see that the C# program has roughly the same performance, but sometimes faster. a couple of things I found GREAT! in C# over Java 1. Attributes! +++++ 2. delegate & event, hypra cool. ++ 3. direct interop, cool. ++ 4. property, very neat. ++ Eaasy! Anyway there is one area where (due to the library) C# kind of sucks compare to Java. It's GUI. Write an heavily customized graphical interface. Java is a clear winner here (amazing, no?) Because WinForm is mostly a kind of sucking thin wrapper around win32 control, whereas Swing is an elegant modernly designed GUI API. However I'm sure that would be fixed with Avalon! However, it has to be say that C# GUI are more responsive (just looks at NetBeans, this slooooow monster), however they had made steady progress and 1.5 perform well. Hi Lloyd, > Anyway there is one area where (due to the library) C# kind of sucks > compare to Java. > It's GUI. I'm an avid online reader and this is the very FIRST opinion I've ever seen that the GUI features of Java Swing are somehow better than .Net. Personally, I find that puzzling. I've seen dozens of whithering denounciations of Swing from Java folks, but not one, until now, kind word. I find this fascinating. I assume from your statements that you are a .Net developer. Perhaps Swing is only good when you don't use it? ;-) Here's a quote from an interesting article on Swing: (the link is below) " The standard Swing component set hasn't changed for the last 4-5 years. These components remain just barely good enough for the job: but as their competitors get better, the Swing component set has become, like, so 1998." http://www.softwarereality.com/soapbox/swing.jsp Signature--- Nick Malik [Microsoft] MCSD, CFPS, Certified Scrummaster http://blogs.msdn.com/nickmalik Disclaimer: Opinions expressed in this forum are my own, and not representative of my employer. I do not answer questions on behalf of my employer. I'm just a programmer helping programmers. -- > > Anyway there is one area where (due to the library) C# kind of sucks > > compare to Java. > > It's GUI. > > I'm an avid online reader and this is the very FIRST opinion I've ever seen > that the GUI features of Java Swing are somehow better than .Net. I've seen several people praising the concepts behind Swing over WinForms - the cleaner MVC model, etc. Personally what irks me most about WinForms compared with Swing is the layout management - roll on Avalon! Swing has improved a lot in the last few years, both in terms of performance and the ability to look more like the native platform. Undoubtedly there's still work to do though... > Personally, I find that puzzling. I've seen dozens of whithering > denounciations of Swing from Java folks, but not one, until now, kind word. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > competitors get better, the Swing component set has become, like, so 1998." > http://www.softwarereality.com/soapbox/swing.jsp Quote from another article: http://www.manageability.org/manageabilityWiki/BetterGUIFramework "Java's two leading GUI frameworks Swing and SWT are better designed than Windows.Forms. In fact both are designed with Java in mind and designed to be portable, unlike Windows.Forms where its a thin wrapper over a native library." Just to show there are two sides to every story... SignatureJon Skeet - <skeet@pobox.com> http://www.pobox.com/~skeet If replying to the group, please do not mail me too > Just to show there are two sides to every story... Point taken Signature--- Nick Malik [Microsoft] MCSD, CFPS, Certified Scrummaster http://blogs.msdn.com/nickmalik Disclaimer: Opinions expressed in this forum are my own, and not representative of my employer. I do not answer questions on behalf of my employer. I'm just a programmer helping programmers. -- > Hi Lloyd, Hi Nick! Answers below.. >> Anyway there is one area where (due to the library) C# kind of sucks >> compare to Java. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > word. I find this fascinating. I assume from your statements that you are > a .Net developer. Perhaps Swing is only good when you don't use it? ;-) I'm surprised to be the first to say so! Let it be know I once was a Java developper! Swing is so good! And I get so frustrated over and over again for the lack of advanced control such as JTable, JTree, JTextComponent and JScrollPane in WinForm. Sure there is DataGrid, TreeView, RichTextBox, ScrollableControl. but with the later you can't basically do anything but their (limited) original intend. Or you have to read heaps of documentation on interop, win32, etc... and their so called 'model - view' behavior is such a joke (compare to swing, anyway). On the contrary, let's take for example the JScrollPane. you could easily replace the scroll bar, put a control in the corner, add headers, and set the internal view. A very common scenario of such advanced use would to put side by side (with a splitter in the middle) a JTree next to a JTable IN THE SAME JScrollControl (hence sharing the same single scroll bar for both control!). and maybe put a DateChooser in the corner and the table's headers in the headers. And all of that in maybe, uh.... 20 lines of code? (and working well!) Try to do the same thing in WinForm, good luck! Not to mention how easy it is to customize any single cell of your JTable or JTree! Also Swing uses REAL Model-View-Controller paradigm. So it's very easy and not resource consuming at all (though a tad unrealistic) to have a JTable with, lets say, 1.000.000.000 (1 billion) rows. Mhh.. tryed the same thing in WinForm? > Here's a quote from an interesting article on Swing: (the link is below) > " The standard Swing component set hasn't changed for the last 4-5 years. > These components remain just barely good enough for the job: but as their > competitors get better, the Swing component set has become, like, so > 1998." > http://www.softwarereality.com/soapbox/swing.jsp mmh... browsing that article rapidly... mmhh... 1st speed and ugliness. well, that was not to wrong. back in 1.2 it was not top responsive and extremely good looking. but NOT THAT BAD! 2nd: browser integration compare to flash: hey, common, get real! does WinForm integrate better than flash? sure Avalon will do! in 2006! ho my god, it's so 1998! 3rd: Swing component should be more powerfull. mmh.. come on, learn to use them 1st! go there: http://java.sun.com/docs/books/tutorial/uiswing/components/components.html 7th: Make swing simpler?!?!?! obviously he is a VB(6) guy who speak after a 2 day crash course on Java ^_^ again, go there: http://java.sun.com/docs/books/tutorial/uiswing/components/components.html 9th: Improve the Layout Managers, gnn? no longer any doubt, this guy is a moron! admitedly GridBagLayout (for example) is a bit tricker to use in the IDE than docking or anchoring. but provides so much more. and it's very behavior makes it more difficult to integrate as smoothly as the laters. however try it with JBuilder, it's quite easy in fact.... Additional thoughts.... after reading the comments. 1st: it's true that for simple GUI I get clearly more productive with VS.NET, however, how many WinForm based application resized properly? most which do have a very simple content! With Swing layout manager it's a bit more complex but it alwasy resize nicely 2nd: it's true with Swing in 1.2, 1.3 & 1.4 the look was also not very appealing. Ocean in 1.5 is quite nice. 3rd: it's true that if I just wanted to fetch a couple of rows from the database and display in a table a mix of DataSet & DataGrid are faster than their Java counter part (where I have to write the model, etc...). However for those of use who are disatisfied with default viewer/renderers, they get much faster customization results with Swing. First you have to realize I think the Java community has a higher standard on what a good GUI library is. SWING is far better than WinForms. SWING's biggest complaint is performance. I think and many others do as well that SWING it pretty well designed, particularly if WinForms is on that scale. SWING could be richer in it's components, but at least it has a better methodology. > > Which drawbacks? > I think that was part of the question ;) [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > - compare size of code (hence the time you will spend on it and the > potential quantity of bug), you will see C# is leaner. Not in my experience. It all depends on whether there are libraries available to do a lot of what you want - and there are *far* more free, open source libraries for Java than for C#, in my experience. The .NET standard libraries provide more than the Java ones do, but if there's something you want that they don't provide, it's often hard to find a high quality free component. > - compare performance, you will see that the C# program has roughly the same > performance, but sometimes faster. And sometimes slower. > a couple of things I found GREAT! in C# over Java > 1. Attributes! +++++ Available in Java 1.5. > 2. delegate & event, hypra cool. ++ > 3. direct interop, cool. ++ > 4. property, very neat. ++ Agreed on all of those. I wish C# had Java's enums though - and Eclipse :) SignatureJon Skeet - <skeet@pobox.com> http://www.pobox.com/~skeet If replying to the group, please do not mail me too answer below >> Personally (and I know I will create flame, but read the argument): Java >> is [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > something you want that they don't provide, it's often hard to find a > high quality free component. well, ho... maybe. let's just say I feel more comfortable, more productive in C# then ;) BTW, just in case, let me point you in this direction: http://www.codeproject.com > well, ho... maybe. > let's just say I feel more comfortable, more productive in C# then ;) Sure, there's nothing wrong with being more comfortable in one language than another. > BTW, just in case, let me point you in this direction: > http://www.codeproject.com In my experience, CodeProject is more about "snippets" than full libraries. (Often those snippets and articles are of poor quality too.) Look on SourceForge though - over 15,000 Java projects, just over 2500 C# projects. SignatureJon Skeet - <skeet@pobox.com> http://www.pobox.com/~skeet If replying to the group, please do not mail me too > I wish C# had Java's enums though - and Eclipse :) hey, just read Java doc on new enum (never did before), hey, they are cool! vote for that too!! I don't know about eclipse, used it only 5 minutes and uninstalled it ^_^ how does it compare to #develop / VC# express? > > I wish C# had Java's enums though - and Eclipse :) > > hey, just read Java doc on new enum (never did before), hey, they are cool! > vote for that too!! My appreciation for them has grown over time - in the project I'm working on now, they've been insanely useful. I wonder how feasible it might be to write a code generator that would give the same effect in C#... you wouldn't be able to switch on the enums without a bit of work wherever they're used, unfortunately. > I don't know about eclipse, used it only 5 minutes and uninstalled it ^_^ Then you didn't give it nearly long enough. Unfortunately it's also got a lot of features you might not find out about unless you hear about them - I can't imagine writing Java without Organise Imports now (I can't remember the last time I wrote an import statement) but you could easily not find out about it. The superb incremental compiler saves rather a lot of compile time, too - the difference is noticeable when we go back to our (fairly small) C# solution... > how does it compare to #develop / VC# express? Not sure, but it beats the pants off VS.NET 2003. I really need to get round to installing the beta of VS 2005 so I can see how many of my favourite Eclipse features it's got. SignatureJon Skeet - <skeet@pobox.com> http://www.pobox.com/~skeet If replying to the group, please do not mail me too [OT], I'll bet you study Math at uni... (I mean you specialized in math) > [OT], I'll bet you study Math at uni... (I mean you specialized in math) Yes, my first degree was in maths - but I'm not sure how you got there from my previous post! SignatureJon Skeet - <skeet@pobox.com> http://www.pobox.com/~skeet If replying to the group, please do not mail me too well,.... let's say I study physics at uni, so I know the beast ;-) I also read some other post you made on the net and.... well I had a strong hunch! they are recognizable the way they speak and explain things. certainly a fan of..... I forget his name! You know this virtual mathematician (who don't exist) but had a search group named after him! Who gave birth to modern mathematic with rigorous definition of such thing as function limit, etc... Nicolas Something I believe... >> [OT], I'll bet you study Math at uni... (I mean you specialized in math) > > Yes, my first degree was in maths - but I'm not sure how you got there > from my previous post! If I restrict deployment base only on Windows machines, then Java apps with GUI are less stable, on different machines behaving differently (sometimes not working at all, nobody knows why), slow and usually ugly. .NET apps using GUI work always the same way - this is what I need. And with .NET 2.0 they look quite nice I guess. Not mentiosning Java-runtime-verison hell (runtime versions cooexistence is far better solved in .NET). > If I restrict deployment base only on Windows machines, then Java apps with > GUI are less stable, on different machines behaving differently (sometimes > not working at all, nobody knows why), slow and usually ugly. I counter that with Eclipse, which is very stable, good looking and fast. See http://www.jgoodies.com/ for information on making Swing work efficiently and in a nice-looking way. > .NET apps using GUI work always the same way - this is what I need. I think you'll find plenty of posts where people complain about WinForms not working the same on Win98 as on Win2000 etc... > And with .NET 2.0 they look quite nice I guess. Not mentiosning > Java-runtime-verison hell (runtime versions cooexistence is far > better solved in .NET). I agree that versioning is *much* better in .NET, although I've rarely actually found it to be a problem myself in Java. I think we need to wait a while to see how well .NET versioning works in real life though - we'll see when it's been around for another 5 years, by which time there'll be more libraries depending on other libraries etc (which is the way things tend to work in Java). SignatureJon Skeet - <skeet@pobox.com> http://www.pobox.com/~skeet If replying to the group, please do not mail me too I could not agree more with this post. C# features are grat and the WinForm library sucks. They just didn't get it. I am not sure there is a list of specific drawbacks that are overcome. Overall, C# is leaner than Java. Some of this, however, is the Java mindset and not an intregal part of the Java language. Personally, I enjoy delegates over event classes. I find it easier to maintain as well as a faster implementation. But, realize that fast is overrated in a day where the difference between Java and C#, for a particular routine, is in the nature of milliseconds. Java, by its nature, abstracts nearly everything to a class (ala event classes). This adds some unnecessary weight. This often forces one to create an object where it might not otherwise make sense. But, this is rare. I am not sure this is helpful, so I will end here and let someone else chime in. SignatureGregory A. Beamer MVP; MCP: +I, SE, SD, DBA *************************** Think Outside the Box! *************************** > Hi all, > > I am New to this group and concept too. > > Can anyone tell me about drawbacks of java overcomed by .NET Free MagazinesGet these publications absolutely FREE for up to 12 months. There are no hidden fees and no obligation. Simply choose a title, complete the application form and submit it. Read more ...
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