.NET Forum / .NET Framework / New Users / April 2005
Proposed MSDN Subscription Changes - VERY BAD!!!
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news.microsoft.com - 22 Mar 2005 10:22 GMT I urge every developer who has an MSDN subscription (Universal) to petition MS to change their proposed ideas on Visual Studio Team Suite (VSTS). Depending on what you read, they are proposing to not include it or raise the price to between $5,000 and $10,000. Every developer who has helped MS make loads of cash of these past many years needs to write to them. Let them know they are about to alienate the one group that always and consistently helps them be successful. It is the most ridiculous thing they've ever proposed. Unbelievable!!!
http://lab.msdn.microsoft.com/productfeedback/viewfeedback.aspx?feedbackId=2b58b 8db-5bba-4dfc-be10-78ad43686b3b
MICROSOFT PLEASE RECONSIDER. YOU WILL LOSE SALES. YOU WILL ALIENATE ALL CLASSES OF DEVELOPERS!
We are the ones that stick up for you when everyone bashes MS.
Help us help you!
GClark
Teemu Keiski - 22 Mar 2005 12:39 GMT Maybe you should read this http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2005/mar05/03-21VS2005PR.asp
Here's a snippet:
No-Cost Upgrades for Active MSDN Universal Subscribers
Existing MSDN Universal subscribers can enjoy a seamless transition to Visual Studio 2005 Team System and automatically receive a no-cost upgrade to one of the role-based subscription products for each active subscription license they own at the time of product availability. Special upgrade pricing to the Team Suite also will be available. Active subscribers may elect to renew their subscription and preserve their existing pricing for future renewals, if they choose; customers without subscriptions, or customers whose subscriptions have lapsed at the time of product availability, will not receive these special pricing offers.
 Signature Teemu Keiski ASP.NET MVP, Finland
>I urge every developer who has an MSDN subscription (Universal) to petition >MS to change their proposed ideas on Visual Studio Team Suite (VSTS). [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > GClark Frans Bouma [C# MVP] - 22 Mar 2005 13:45 GMT > I urge every developer who has an MSDN subscription (Universal) to petition > MS to change their proposed ideas on Visual Studio Team Suite (VSTS). [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > We are the ones that stick up for you when everyone bashes MS. I don't see the problem. MSDN universal is an individual license. This means that it's not a 'team' who licenses MSDN Universal. Though 'team system' is only really effective if you use it in a team. As an individual, there is not that much value in a large team system installation, as it requires a lot of resources an individual probably doesn't have (i.e.: installing it all on your laptop isn't recommended).
FB
Scott M. - 23 Mar 2005 00:39 GMT I think you (and MS) have forgotten about the individual developer consultant like myself who needs all the roles and doesn't want to buy 4 licenses to get them.
>> I urge every developer who has an MSDN subscription (Universal) to >> petition MS to change their proposed ideas on Visual Studio Team Suite [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > FB Steve C. Orr [MVP, MCSD] - 23 Mar 2005 00:58 GMT There is a good deal of stuff in Team System that even lone developers could benefit from. Profiling, Bug Tracking, Architechting Tools, Testing Tools, etc. I agree that Microsoft should be looking out for the little guy here. An MSDN subscription costs a lot of money for individual consultants, but at least it used to mean that they'd get everything they need. It no longer seems to mean that, so what good is it to pay all that money?
 Signature I hope this helps, Steve C. Orr, MCSD, MVP http://SteveOrr.net
>> I urge every developer who has an MSDN subscription (Universal) to >> petition MS to change their proposed ideas on Visual Studio Team Suite [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > FB Gerhard Menzl - 23 Mar 2005 11:25 GMT > There is a good deal of stuff in Team System that even lone developers > could benefit from. Profiling, Bug Tracking, Architechting Tools, > Testing Tools, etc. Two questions:
1. Does that mean that there will be a $2,500 edition of Visual Studio 2005 which does *not* include a profiler?
2. Can anybody come up with a link to a comprehensive overview of which edition is going to comprise what?
 Signature Gerhard Menzl
#dogma int main ()
Humans may reply by replacing the thermal post part of my e-mail address with "kapsch" and the top level domain part with "net".
Teemu Keiski - 24 Mar 2005 14:24 GMT http://lab.msdn.microsoft.com/vs2005/productinfo/productline/default.aspx
According to this one, code profiling is only in VSTS versions.
 Signature Teemu Keiski ASP.NET MVP, Finland
> > There is a good deal of stuff in Team System that even lone developers > > could benefit from. Profiling, Bug Tracking, Architechting Tools, [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > 2. Can anybody come up with a link to a comprehensive overview of which > edition is going to comprise what? Tim Ellison - 31 Mar 2005 12:31 GMT FB,
Your argument, although convincing, is weak. The same argument could be applied to Sharepoint. What's really the purpose of Sharepoint Server in MSDN Univ. since it doesn't truly do any good unless there is someone with whom to collaborate. The same could apply any number of servers included in the subscription.
The purpose of the majority of users who subscribe is to have at their access, any of the included Microsoft products with which to conduct research and eventually propose a solution to their clients (meaning product and licensing sales for Microsoft). If Microsoft is concerned about releasing Team System due to licensing issues, fine. Include Team System with a 1 user license. The tool is touted as being the replacement for VSS after all and it's important (as a consultant who proposes Microsoft solutions) that we know more than the client.
 Signature TIM ELLISON
news.microsoft.com wrote: > I urge every developer who has an MSDN subscription (Universal) to petition > MS to change their proposed ideas on Visual Studio Team Suite (VSTS). > Depending on what you read, they are proposing to not include it or raise > the price to between $5,000 and $10,000. Every developer who has helped MS > make loads of cash of these past many years needs to write to them. Let > them know they are about to alienate the one group that always and > consistently helps them be successful. It is the most ridiculous thing > they've ever proposed. Unbelievable!!! > > http://lab.msdn.microsoft.com/productfeedback/viewfeedback.aspx?feedbackId=2b58b 8db-5bba-4dfc-be10-78ad43686b3b > > > MICROSOFT PLEASE RECONSIDER. YOU WILL LOSE SALES. YOU WILL ALIENATE ALL > CLASSES OF DEVELOPERS! > > We are the ones that stick up for you when everyone bashes MS.
I don't see the problem. MSDN universal is an individual license. This means that it's not a 'team' who licenses MSDN Universal. Though 'team system' is only really effective if you use it in a team. As an individual, there is not that much value in a large team system installation, as it requires a lot of resources an individual probably doesn't have (i.e.: installing it all on your laptop isn't recommended).
FB
Frans Bouma [C# MVP] - 01 Apr 2005 10:15 GMT > FB, > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > consultant who proposes Microsoft solutions) that we know more than > the client. It turned out I hadn't read all of the stuff and misinterpreted it. I since have a different opinion, and I wrote a lengthy piece of text about that on my blog so I'm not going to repeat it here. Short story: my opinion expressed here earlier is not the one I have now about the same subject :)
FB
 Signature ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Get LLBLGen Pro, productive O/R mapping for .NET: http://www.llblgen.com My .NET blog: http://weblogs.asp.net/fbouma Microsoft MVP (C#) ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dick Grier - 22 Mar 2005 19:11 GMT Microsoft has urged users to purchase a MSDN Universal (I think) subscription RSN. Current users will be grandfathered in. That is, they will not have to pay the increased license cost and will be able to enjoy VSTS using the current licensing structure. Only new licensees, those who purchase AFTER the change will be affected.
Dick
 Signature Richard Grier (Microsoft Visual Basic MVP)
See www.hardandsoftware.net for contact information.
Author of Visual Basic Programmer's Guide to Serial Communications, 4th Edition ISBN 1-890422-28-2 (391 pages) published July 2004. See www.mabry.com/vbpgser4 to order.
gaidar - 22 Mar 2005 19:41 GMT Hey! It's not a reason to worry! Just think about your own subscription - you'll get new Team System for free!
Don't even try to make developers against MS or will stay against you! :))
Gaidar
>I urge every developer who has an MSDN subscription (Universal) to petition >MS to change their proposed ideas on Visual Studio Team Suite (VSTS). [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > GClark news.microsoft.com - 23 Mar 2005 00:32 GMT I'm glad to see they've addressed this somewhat. I'm still a little worried about the trend though.
http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2005/mar05/03-21VS2005PR.asp
http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/features/2005/mar05/03-21DevToolsPricing.asp
One of my points is also that we developers are also the ones who often recommend the tools to use for development to various companies we do work for. If we cannot evaluate the product, we cannot recommend it. I need to be able so see what the tools offer before I can recommend them. Not only the tools, but Office products, the various servers, etc. We are directly and indirectly responsible for many sales for MS.
As far as cost goes, I've usually been able to make the company I'm working for at the time purchase MSDN. It is far easier to get $2500 approved than it would be to get $5000, or even $10000. Those times when I have to purchase MSDN myself would make it prohibitively expensive for me to purchase. As a developer, I want all the tools I can get my hands on to make my life as easy as possible. Often times, I work standalone, so I need to use all the tools to get the job done. I suspect there are many one-man shops out there. And, for those times when I have to work with others, I at least want to know how to use the tools that we'll all be using. It is critical that I get to at the very least familiarize myself with those tools.
I have always supported MS and will continue to do so. I just want to make sure they take care of me (and us) as a loyal developer, user, and salesperson. I would hate to have to switch to a different platform because the cost is prohibitive. I would hate to have to downgrade my subscription and not be able to use the advanced tools because of cost. I've been able to be a better developer and salesperson for MS because I've always had access to the full line of products via Universal. It just feels like that may change when they start tweaking with prices and levels. Universal means Universal.
>I urge every developer who has an MSDN subscription (Universal) to petition >MS to change their proposed ideas on Visual Studio Team Suite (VSTS). [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > GClark Eric - 26 Mar 2005 16:39 GMT > One of my points is also that we developers are also the ones who often > recommend the tools to use for development to various companies we do work > for. If we cannot evaluate the product, we cannot recommend it. Great point!
But: 1) MS doesn't really care if you recommend it or not, based on the proposed pricing. They are targetting a high-end niche, and most of us aren't teally able to steer that segment of the market. 2) The very high "per seat" price puts this out of consideration for small or medium sized companies, anyway. It only makes sense for large companies. Large companies would likely have their own architects to evaluate the system, and they have enough discretionary money to buy licenses for evaluation purposes. I'd expect MS to give them free evaluation licenses also, depending on how much business they do with MS.
It's fine with me if Microsoft targets a new high-end market segment that has not been well-served by VSS and Visio. I am happy that they're finally trying to compete in the full life-cycle arena, and they deserve to make a reasonable return on their investment.
I'm sad that I won't be able to go down that road with them, but I understand the market segment they are targetting, and it not a segment I work in at this time.
Eric
Sean Hederman - 26 Mar 2005 22:32 GMT >> One of my points is also that we developers are also the ones who often >> recommend the tools to use for development to various companies we do [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > proposed pricing. They are targetting a high-end niche, and most of us > aren't teally able to steer that segment of the market. I think what he means is that independent consultants and ISV's often recommend software to customers. I know that in the last 6 months my personal recommendations have netted MS about $75,000. It's difficult to advise people about software you don't have access to however. Due to the new licensing options and costs, I'll be getting Professional for myself when my current contractee's subscription expires. Whilst they have made Professional more attractive, it means I won't have access to the enterprise-level server tools. Therefore, when looking at enterprise level software I'll have to consider looking at non-MS alternatives. When providing advice for SDLC tools I won't be able to recommend VSTS. I've heard talk about the 120-day trial, but frankly I feel that to put an SDLC tool through it's paces one has to run it through a full dev cycle. I certainly don't often get so lucky as to run through a project in under 120 days.
Now, I DO understand that VSTS is a developers product so it doesn't make sense to provide it at cut rate to developers. However, most of the stuff I was looking for was incidental to VSTS. I was under the impression that Whidbey would be coming with a decent source control system, and built-in defect tracking integration, along with testing and profiling tools. Frankly, everything else is nice, but not neccesary. What I want to know is why they couldn't just spent some time integrating tools like NCover, NUnit, NProf and so forth into a coherent whole in Whidbey for the lower end of the market. We've only been asking for something like that since VB4.
Another option would have been to provide the standard 5 CAL, 1 Server license for Universal subscriptions. Then MS could charge a fortune for extra CAL's. They wouldn't lose any revenue since the people/companies who wouldn't need to purchase more CAL's wouldn't be buying VSTS anyway. Instead, they've seriously irritated the small ISV's and consultants. Another irritant has been the high-handed attitude coming out from MS that us non-Enterprise developers don't actually need or use SDLC tools. Earth to MS: we do, albeit we don't need massive systems like VSTS. I think the main problem has been the whole way this was marketed. We were informed about all the wonders of Team System for ages and ages, and not once did I hear it mentioned that this was not going to be part of the standard MSDN package. So make us drool, and then pull the rug from under our feet. I believe that's the reason there's so much anger.
> 2) The very high "per seat" price puts this out of consideration for small > or medium sized companies, anyway. It only makes sense for large [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Eric Juan T. Llibre - 27 Mar 2005 04:34 GMT re:
> What I want to know is why they couldn't just spent some time integrating > tools like NCover, NUnit, NProf and so forth into a coherent whole in > Whidbey for the lower end of the market. Because if they did that, they'd be accused of undermining those products, and establishing a monopoly ?
You'd do well to take a look at : http://dotnetjunkies.com/WebLog/christopherbowen/archive/2004/06/07/15677.aspx and see how many products are touched by VSTS.
I have a feeling those are many more products than you've given consideration to, and that the developers who are working on them might not feel the same way you do when you demand that similar tools be included in a Microsoft product which is not VSTS, and which -furthermore- is available at a very low price.
I know it's easy to demand lots of tools at a very cheap price, but the plain fact is that you can have most of those tools for *no price at all*, or for a lot less than what VSTS will cost.
If you need to have Enterprise features, you will need to pay for them, since providing Enterprise tools to developers who are not a part of Enterprise teams, and who want to have Enterprise tools for cheap, doesn't make much sense, business-wise.
If a developer has need for less features than VSTS, that developer can always buy VS.NET "Standard" for about $300. That's not a bad deal.
Home enthusiasts and small developers will even be able to purchase Visual Web Developer or any of the Express line of products for just $49, which is a great deal!
As far as VS, if "Standard" is not enough, then "Professional" might do. They will, both, be considerably cheaper that VSTS.
What you can't expect is that Enterprise-level Team Tools be available on the cheap plan.
Juan T. Llibre ASP.NET MVP http://asp.net.do/foros/ Foros de ASP.NET en Espa?ol Ven, y hablemos de ASP.NET... ======================
>>> One of my points is also that we developers are also the ones who often >>> recommend the tools to use for development to various companies we do [quoted text clipped - 64 lines] >> >> Eric Sean Hederman - 27 Mar 2005 08:55 GMT > re: >> What I want to know is why they couldn't just spent some time integrating [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Because if they did that, they'd be accused of undermining > those products, and establishing a monopoly ? They're free, it'd be a bit difficult to accuse MS of taking over a market when one doesn't exist. They don't seem to give a damn about, say, integrating Office 2003 style toolbars, and there are plenty of those out in the marketplace, free and otherwise. Anyway I was thinking more about MS working with those projects to help them interoperate better, and then shipping those projects with VS. I don't think you can be accused of undermining a product when you ship it with your flagship tool.
> You'd do well to take a look at : > http://dotnetjunkies.com/WebLog/christopherbowen/archive/2004/06/07/15677.aspx > and see how many products are touched by VSTS. Ummm, yeah, but, the Build Tools market is already hit by MSBuild, the Source Control by SourceSafe, leaving only Testing, Profiling and RAD/Modelling/Management. All I was asking for was to include Testing and Profiling tools. Oh yeah, and to give us a decent SourceControl tool to replace that dog that is VSS.
> I have a feeling those are many more products than you've given > consideration to, and that the developers who are working on them > might not feel the same way you do when you demand that similar > tools be included in a Microsoft product which is not VSTS, > and which -furthermore- is available at a very low price. But this is entirely my point! I don't WANT all that extra stuff. All I wanted is what's been on the top of every developers wish list since the days of VB4, a decent source control with a bit of integration to a decent issue tracker and maybe some assistance on the testing and profiling front. The fact that there are so many free products out there that do these things indicates that the market for these tools has become commoditised. The reason? They're what *every* developer *needs*, not wants. Since they are commodities.
As for VSTS, it is indeed available at a lower price than its competitors. Such a situation does not make it cheap. The Enterprise SDLC market has been overheating for years now, with insane pricing for little comparative benefit. MS is just adding another (slightly cheaper) product to that pile. Considering their reputation for not getting products polished until v3, I think that they'll have a tough sell.
> I know it's easy to demand lots of tools at a very cheap price, > but the plain fact is that you can have most of those tools for > *no price at all*, or for a lot less than what VSTS will cost. Yes, but they don't work together nicely.
> If you need to have Enterprise features, you will need to pay for them, > since providing Enterprise tools to developers who are not a part of > Enterprise teams, and who want to have Enterprise tools for cheap, > doesn't make much sense, business-wise. Actually it does. The vast majority of developers out there do not work for large enterprises, but they do write hundreds of applications and tools that are part of what makes Windows appealing to the public at large. However, said public is getting fed up with perceived Microsoft application unreliability and lack of security. A fair portion of this perception comes from buggy, badly designed, and poorly tested applications supplied by the hordes of developers out there. Microsoft has always recognised the developer market as a strategic one for the rest of the company, and accepted therefore that it's developer tools areas can be loss leaders. Until now. You can read my post http://codingsanity.blogspot.com/2005/03/is-microsoft-losing-plot.html on this very topic.
> If a developer has need for less features than VSTS, > that developer can always buy VS.NET "Standard" [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > As far as VS, if "Standard" is not enough, then "Professional" might do. > They will, both, be considerably cheaper that VSTS. And this is exactly the high-handed attitude I was talking about. "If a developer has need for less features than VSTS". What makes a developer require less features? Well, the fact that they're not an Enterprise developer. Nothing to do with their skill, or their role in development, or with the difficulty of projects they're working on, merely with the size of the customer.
> What you can't expect is that Enterprise-level > Team Tools be available on the cheap plan. Why not? Biztalk is, and it costs WAY more than VSTS. Admittedly, it is only available for development and VSTS is a development tool, but as I've pointed out in this and previous posts, providing *some* portions of VSTS to everyone will assist developers in creating higher-quality products for strategic Microsoft products like Biztalk, Windows, SQL Server, and Office. Alternatively, providing a cheap (possibly scaled down) VSTS server and 5 CALs for small development teams *that would never have been able to buy VSTS anyway*, and simply making the additional CALs expensive would not only assist the smaller teams and allow them to compete head-on with Enterprises, but would also keep VSTS as a major revenue stream. Imagine that in 2 years I'm hired to head up a large Enterprise team. Well, I certainly wouldn't recommend VSTS for such a scenario, since I've never used it, instead I'd put in place the OSS SDLC tools that I've been using up till that point. If said team had a large amount of time to evaluate products like VSTS, well then I might push it, but how often does that happen in practise?
Now consider that if you're not using VSTS, Universal subscription adds no new development tools. Add to that the fact that if you have Professional you no longer have access to the server systems other than SQL Developer. Once again, if I don't use Biztalk or Sharepoint I'm going to have difficulty in pushing them as solutions. Basically, VSTS has hijacked MS's entire long-term strategic vision for a dubious short-term commercial gain. Not the kind of forward thinking I expect from MS.
So, what they've done is ensure that the people who actually adore MS products enough to buy their own subscriptions to MSDN do not have access to a product that such people would invariable push at their customers. As I said in my previous post, the poor way this whole saga has been communicated has led to a poisoning of attitudes towards MS from consultants and small ISVs, and for what? To ensure that MS don't lose out on a VSTS revenue stream they would never have anyway.
For me, I don't really care about VSTS. I work (fairly) happily with the tools that already exist, and I haven't seen anything so compelling in VSTS that I'm completely distraught at not having access to it. I am concerned about a couple of things though: - Microsoft have finally listened to what their dev community has been screaming for for almost a decade now, and provided it only to their larger customers. - Microsoft have decided to put the server development licenses out of normal developers and small ISV's reach. - They've decided to completely skew the playing field in favour of the Enterprise customers. - They've decided to put short-term profits before long-term strategy. - They've communicated this is an arrogant and dismissive way.
Those are what I'm worried about, not this whole VSTS brouhaha, that's small fry. I'm worried that the above might become a trend.
> Juan T. Llibre > ASP.NET MVP [quoted text clipped - 72 lines] >>> >>> Eric Juan T. Llibre - 27 Mar 2005 12:36 GMT This is not one of those topics where someone *must* be right and someone *wrong*.
If you feel that strongly, post your viewpoints about where you think Visual Studio should head to at:
http://forums.microsoft.com/forums/
Those Forums are manned by VS Program Managers, and are the best communications media to get the right people to listen to, and possibly act on, your VS suggestions.
Filling a bunch of developer newsgroups with what amounts to spam, even though it's an interesting topic, isn't the best course of action.
Back to coding, and leaving marketing to marketers.
Juan T. Llibre ASP.NET MVP http://asp.net.do/foros/ Foros de ASP.NET en Espa?ol Ven, y hablemos de ASP.NET... ======================
>> re: >>> What I want to know is why they couldn't just spent some time [quoted text clipped - 216 lines] >>>> >>>> Eric
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