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.NET Forum / .NET Framework / Distributed Applications / December 2005Yet another, remoting vs web services, datasets vs custom objects....
Hi all, Im about to embark into the development of a 12 month project, the project is basically a WinForms app with a web based server supplying the data and business logic. We are an ISV so the intention is to use ClickOnce to get our winforms accounting package out to our web based global client base and then point those clients to our public data centre servers for application services. Once again we are on the Web Services vs Remoting territory, the fore and against arguments so far as I can tell are.... Web Service Ups...Remoting Downs > Interopability across multiple platforms and technologies, remoting > requires .NET either end, not a problem since we are supplying the client > I guess > Highly supported in the M$ community, WSE etc, remoting seems to have a > MUCH smaller following and less emphasis by M$ as a technology for this > kind of app? > Ive used Web Services in anger for over 4 years since M$ SOAP Toolkit v1, > Ive never used remoting Web Service Downs...Remoting Ups > Compared to Remoting Im told they are slower (serialise and deserialise I > guess) and have seen a few Microsoft articles that state the difference is > actually negligable > Web Services are Stateless, as I understand it it would be much easier for > our developers to have Stateful remoting objects as our application is > highly object driven and complex as well as data centric The general advice seems to be that if you are controlling the desktop use remoting, otherwise use web services, but which is going to best for moving to Indigo ? I was also planning to use custom objects and collections rather than datasets, then a colleague told me about using binary XML datatables, apparently they are a good DTO if you are using web services. Also to keep firewall friendly we are planning on pushing everything through HTTP port 80 and likely running the remoting service inside IIS - but everytime I make a decision I seem to find some conflicting article, forum, newsgroup to choosing the best technology for my application. Anyone out there done anything similar and can point me in the right direction on some of these decisions? TIA Chaz ROFL, did you copy/paste this from a Slasdot post or something? 'M$', indeed.  SignatureKlaus H. Probst, MVP http://www.simulplex.net/ > Hi all, > [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > > Chaz I wish, spent 40minutes typing up that mail :) I also read SlashDot a bit ;) Any ideas on how I can move forward with choosing my technology Klaus or anyone else ? Chaz > ROFL, did you copy/paste this from a Slasdot post or something? > [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] >> >> Chaz Hi Chaz, >> Ive used Web Services in anger for over 4 years since M$ SOAP Toolkit v1, >> Ive never used remoting The first "real" argument... use the technology you (and your team) feel comfortable with. > Web Service Downs...Remoting Ups >> Compared to Remoting Im told they are slower (serialise and deserialise I >> guess) and have seen a few Microsoft articles that state the difference >> is actually negligable Do you have performance related acceptance criteria? How do these measure up against these two technology options? >> Web Services are Stateless, as I understand it it would be much easier >> for our developers to have Stateful remoting objects as our application >> is highly object driven and complex as well as data centric Stateful designs requires server resources, how many concurrent users do you have? Stateful doesn't work well in server farms and for this reason doesn't scale up/out well. You should prefer a stateless design server-side. > The general advice seems to be that if you are controlling the desktop use > remoting, otherwise use web services, but which is going to best for > moving to Indigo ? Web Service Enhancements (WSE) 3.0 offers the migration path towards Indigo. > I was also planning to use custom objects and collections rather than > datasets, then a colleague told me about using binary XML datatables, > apparently they are a good DTO if you are using web services. You should prefer XML since it offers maximal interoperability. Share schema and contract, not class (do not put a System.Data.DataTable type on the wire). To efficiently transport high volume XML over the wire, use MTOM. MTOM enables interoperable solutions to transmit binary data as part of a SOAP message. Best regards, Paul Gielens Visit my blog @ http://weblogs.asp.net/pgielens/ ### First of all thankyou for your insights Paul, your comments are very valuable to me. > Do you have performance related acceptance criteria? How do these measure > up against these two technology options? Not as such, although our software is used in a call centre environment where every second counts to the operators in that environment. > Stateful designs requires server resources, how many concurrent users do > you have? Stateful doesn't work well in server farms and for this reason > doesn't scale up/out well. You should prefer a stateless design > server-side. Is it fair to say that using stateful designs is always a big no-no, regardless of whether I select the remoting or web service options, does that include any use of ASP Session State in the case of Web Services ? - If thats the case doesnt that mean much more data has to pass between the server and client to maintain state between operations ? > Web Service Enhancements (WSE) 3.0 offers the migration path towards > Indigo. I was hoping you would say that, I have just started playing with WSE 3 and am looking at MTOM Thanks again for you advice Paul, can you recommend any good source code examples of using these technologies the way you describe in a SmartClient environment, I already have TaskVision, IssueVision and some of the M$ 24/7 series but find them pretty hard to follow. Chaz ========================================================= > Hi Chaz, > [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > Visit my blog @ http://weblogs.asp.net/pgielens/ > ### Hi Chaz, > First of all thankyou for your insights Paul, your comments are very > valuable to me. Thanks! >> Stateful designs requires server resources, how many concurrent users do >> you have? Stateful doesn't work well in server farms and for this reason [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > regardless of whether I select the remoting or web service options, does > that include any use of ASP Session State in the case of Web Services ? It's always a tradeoff. With a stateless design you need to decide where to persist state outside of the service so that it can be retrieved on a per request basis, typically a database. > If thats the case doesnt that mean much more data has to pass between the > server and client to maintain state between operations ? Yes. How does the data volume messure up against the server-side computing/processing cost? This also depends on the service- and datacontract... fine/coard grained. > Thanks again for you advice Paul, can you recommend any good source code > examples of using these technologies the way you describe in a SmartClient > environment, I already have TaskVision, IssueVision and some of the M$ > 24/7 series but find them pretty hard to follow. Actually (unfortunately no example code) I used Neo (http://neo.codehaus.org) in a smart client application. Neo stores the context of your application, how obvious, in a ObjectContext object. The ObjectContext can work disconnected and be serialized to XML. You can then send the whole context as XML across the wire and let the service persist it in a data store. An alternative is to map the context to data transfer objects (DTO) consumed by the service. I know ThoughtWorks (the creators of Neo) have experience building smart client application with Neo. Please ask your questions here user@neo.codehaus.org. To subscribe send an empty mail to user-subscribe@neo.codehaus.org and follow the instructions. Best regards, Paul Gielens Visit my blog @ http://weblogs.asp.net/pgielens/ ### Funny you should mention NEO its one I have had a play with, I have looked at many ORM frameworks including NEO, but have so far found IDEABLADE DevForce to be one of the most feature rich environments, Im having trouble finding out how much it costs though.. Stangely enough it seems to use Remoting as its preferred Internet connectivity. > Hi Chaz, > [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > Visit my blog @ http://weblogs.asp.net/pgielens/ > ### I agree. Take a look at DevForce from IdeaBlade (www.ideablade.com). They have have put lots of work into the remoting aspect of their framework. And it can work in a disconnected state (and then replicate), if that matters for your application. I use the ORM and DataBinding parts of the framework which have been very helpful. Smart folks over there. Pricing is pretty reasonable on a developer basis. Server-based pricing is still evolving, IMO, so work with them on it. Free MagazinesGet these publications absolutely FREE for up to 12 months. There are no hidden fees and no obligation. Simply choose a title, complete the application form and submit it. Read more ...
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