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.NET Forum / ASP.NET / General / October 2005Exam 70-305
Im going to be looking to do this exam fairly soon, but ive done a couple of practice tests and found them to be a bit tricky in as much as you have to REALLY READ the questions carefully else they trip you up. When you have four multi choice and each one has 8 lines of code, its like looking at those damn near identicle picture and spotting the difference. Its almost as if they expect you to have an on line help in your head !! How did others get on with it ? Cheers Mr N PS: Im going to hook up my positronic relay to a Sub Dermal Borg Neural Node Interlink transmitter and connect to the billion tera quads of help provided with VS2003, this should help. If not I'm going to re-route all emergency power to my cebral cortex and blow my friggin head off!!!! :)) I thought the exam was extremly easy. I finished in about 25 minutes and got a high score. personally, it soured me on the entire experience, much too easy and focusing on the wrong things. Anyways, best way to study is to take a lot of sample tests.. Karl  SignatureMY ASP.Net tutorials http://www.openmymind.net/ http://openmymind.net/redirector.aspx?documentId=51 - Learn about AJAX! > Im going to be looking to do this exam fairly soon, but ive done a couple > of practice tests and found them to be a bit tricky in as much as you have [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > :)) >I thought the exam was extremly easy. I finished in about 25 minutes and >got a high score. personally, it soured me on the entire experience, much >too easy and focusing on the wrong things. It's my personal opinion that MCPs are a total and utter waste of time and money. They don't teach you how to be a better developer; just to remember a load of pointless facts that you never need to remember in your day-to-day work. I've always equated them to driving lessons - they don't teach you how to be a good driver; they just teach you how to pass your driving test. I used the QUE book by Mike Gunderloy and the material from Trancenders. I think the trancenders material was more tricky and harder than the real test but worth the money. the Mike Gunderloy book was a great prep but more than a prep - I still use it for reference because it touches on about everything. My reaction to all that code was the same as yours and I believe the practice tests taught me how to spot those differences quickly. The prep experience and the test was very good for me because it forced me to learn all areas where before I was really strong in about half of them. SignatureRegards, Gary Blakely Dean Blakely & Associates www.deanblakely.com -- Regards, Gary Blakely Dean Blakely & Associates www.deanblakely.com > Im going to be looking to do this exam fairly soon, but ive done a couple > of practice tests and found them to be a bit tricky in as much as you have [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > :)) As a guy with each of these certifications: MCSD, MCDBA, MCSA, MCSE (with MCSD.NET just around the corner); I can tell you firsthand that any of the certifications or exams won't make you a better programmer or even provide much of an indication of what you actually know. One unfortunate side effect of having these certs is that they pretty much increase people's expectations unrealistically for what you know and what you can do. There is an absolutely HUGE amount of material potentially covered by all those tests and I honestly cannot tell you want a passing grade really means. For example I got 100% on the COM section of one of the MCSD tests and I can tell you I don't know much beyond the absolute basics of COM. On the other hand I barely passed other exams and they never asked me anything about a whole bunch of stuff that I knew that was relevant. So one thing I've concluded is that one's score on these exams measures - in large part - the exam's ability to measure what you DO in fact know. A low score may mean that the test failed to measure your knowledge adequately. A high score may mean the exact same thing! The upshot of this: You might do well to have some clear understanding of what a passing score means - and means just for you. Personally, I just look at it as a way to get *some* idea of how well I have covered some of the fundamentals in some area of inquiry (and even then, just on Microsoft products). If I can't even pass one of these tests, then I better hit the books! But that doesn't mean that passing the test gives me any sense of [elevated status] in the industry - after all, it's hard to really know what a passing score means. Bottom line is that you really need to roll up your sleeves and get some good old fashioned experience before you can really consider yourself as achieving any level of *expertise* - even then it's only limited to the domain in which you have such experience; certification or no certification. -HTH -GH > Im going to be looking to do this exam fairly soon, but ive done a couple > of practice tests and found them to be a bit tricky in as much as you have [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > :)) For those interested, here is info on the next generation of Microsoft certifications. http://www.microsoft.com/learning/mcp/newgen/ With these new certifications - particularly the Microsoft Certified Architect - the *meaning* of the credential will be much more clear than those offered today. I guess MS saw a need to revamp things - perhaps to add some additional validity to the whole certification process. -FWIW > As a guy with each of these certifications: MCSD, MCDBA, MCSA, MCSE (with > MCSD.NET just around the corner); [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] >> >> :)) My experience is that developers who say these test mean nothing are afraid to take them or maybe not up to the effort to study for them. Just because you pass the bar does not mean you are an excellent lawyer but it is evidence that you are not some dumb sh.t. T :) > Im going to be looking to do this exam fairly soon, but ive done a couple > of practice tests and found them to be a bit tricky in as much as you have [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > :)) Your post is confusing. I'm a developer who has passed 13 of these tests and I'm sure you read my post explaining the lack of objective meaning... and then you make your sweeping statement??? Also, please don't post profanity here. Unlike the SQL Programming NG and others, this one is fairly civil. We'd like to keep it that way. -GH > My experience is that developers who say these test mean nothing are > afraid to take them or maybe not up to the effort to study for them. Just [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >> >> :)) I think that not withstanding the colourfull language used, she has a point ! For someone who has had no real experience with the technology it would be impossible to pass the exam cold. Therefore to at least work through the MS or other preperation material has merit in terms of study time applied and the will and focus to actually schedule and realize the exam iteself. Therfore I beleive in the merit of this process, however I take your points regarding the potential for the results to skew the underlying aptitude. For someone who already knows the technology, of course the exams would probably be fairly mechanical, especially for someone like yourself who is obviously an experienced person in this field. I hope that I do make the grade and go on to better things. I view it as a stepping stone. And thanks for all the replies to my post. Thanks Again .. Mr Newbie > Your post is confusing. I'm a developer who has passed 13 of these tests > and I'm sure you read my post explaining the lack of objective meaning... [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] >>> >>> :)) Until now at least, the certification process has been meaningless. The development world is hideously complex, and even knowing the answers to all of the questions in an exam doesn't prepare one for the experience of real-world development. Only the experience itself does. In other words, using a carpenter as an analogy, there is a difference between knowing what all of one's tools are, how they work, what they are used for, and how to read a blueprint, and knowing how to build houses. All development projects are different, and present different and unique challenges to the developer. In my experiences, Murphy is a constant companion. I am constantly barraged by new situations, requirements that exceed my skill set, problems I have never encountered before, and I've been programming for a dozen years. A certification exam can measure certain things, and is useful for measuring those things, and those things only. Among the most critical skills required by any developer are problem-solving skill, logic, creative thinking, anal attention to detail, a measure of healthy paranoia, and dogged persistence. Until now, I have not seen certification exams which are able to measure most of these things. I have not seen certification exams which do measure the ones which can be measured (such as problem-solving and logic). It is not very important to know a lot. After all, "a lot" is a non-specific quantity. Without a frame of reference, it is meaningless. It is *critically* important to be able to find out a lot, and to be able to do so quickly. I'd love to see an exam which involved playing "20 questions." THAT would be a good measurement criteria! The best developers I have known and worked with most often had little or no formal training, and either had not taken any certification exams, or had taken them as a requirement of their job, and for no other reason. Programming is a high-salary job. Many people are going to want to make the kind of money that can be made doing it. Among them, only a select few are "born programmers" or have the self-discipline and persistence to acquire these skills and qualities. Most people don't realize it, but it requires less work over a lifetime to become a Doctor. While there is a period of some years during which an aspiring Doctor has to work his/her proverbial butt off, after that, it is fairly easy to keep up with the advances in the trade. Most Doctors are specialists of one sort or another, and only need to keep up with a limited set of knowledge. They have nurses and other lower-paid medical technicians to do most of their work for them. And the human body isn't re-designed every 5 or 10 years. As for me, and others like me (you know who you are), I spend as much time studying as I do developing. And I feel like I can never manage to keep up, even though I do, by comparison, overall. Fortunately for me, I love to learn. I love a challenge. I can endure almost any stress except for boredom. Math, Logic, and Science are the greatest loves of my life, with the (possible) exception of my wife. ;-) But how many people who aspire to make the big bucks have similar traits? Many aspiring developers are people who saw an ad for "Some Technical Institute" on tv, and bought into the hype. They are in it for the money. There are as many hack developers out there as there are hack car mechanics, hack politicians, and hack lawyers. Some of these are very good at passing certification exams. I have never taken one. Why? 1. I have never needed to. I have always acquired work by virtue of my accomplishments (A good portfolio is worth a thousand certificates). 2. I have never been required to by a job that I've held. 3. I have been too busy studying and performing to take the time for an exam. 4. Taking the above into consideration, I have never wanted to take one "for fun." Taking an exam is not my idea of fun. The real exam is my everyday life. Anyway, that's my story and I'm stickin' with it! SignatureHTH, Kevin Spencer Microsoft MVP .Net Developer A watched clock never boils. >I think that not withstanding the colourfull language used, she has a point >! [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] >>>> >>>> :)) Your rhetoric is exhaustive; you must feel passionate about the subject. Whilst I see the intellectual merit of some of your points, your argument completely fails to address my point. To say that the Microsoft Certification Process is 'meaningless' is simply 'Incorrect' The fact that one 'strives' to pass an exam by using study preparations by definition means that one must 'learn' or assures ones learning during the course of such preparation. The only exception would be when one has already achieved such knowledge prior to the exam by other means, in which case the only reason to have taken it would have either been to prove to a third party or oneself that one has achieved this badge of merit. I have never said that the exam certificate is a predicate to being thought of as professional or to be seen as able in the science of producing well written software, but nevertheless, one cannot be harmed from having gone through the process. I propose that it is better to have achieved the certificates than not, and whilst you personally may be more proficient than those who have them, I think to look down on those who have run the gauntlet of the challenge, would be rather snobbish to say the least and down right arrogant to say the most. I'm pleased that you feel able to wear colours which demonstrate your wit, courage, determination and heroism earned in fighting the bloody, savage and brutalistic struggles seen in countless project battlegrounds in the IT Amphitheatre. Have a thought for those lesser mortals who are so much less able than yourself, and who aspire to your elevated position, but don't have twelve years or so to spend on the gut wrenching ardours of coding skirmishes to be considered worthy to wear your colours, and have to simply settle at this point for going through Microsoft's own certification system. HTH > Until now at least, the certification process has been meaningless. The > development world is hideously complex, and even knowing the answers to [quoted text clipped - 130 lines] >>>>> >>>>> :)) I've passed a few of these tests. I'd be happy to correspond offline with you on this... as this thread is quickly becoming a "religious debate". Send to jeffREMOVE_THIS330cia@yahooDOTcom if interested. -F > Your rhetoric is exhaustive; you must feel passionate about the subject. > Whilst I see the intellectual merit of some of your points, your argument [quoted text clipped - 168 lines] >>>>>> >>>>>> :)) Thanks for the reply Frankie ( Jeff ). I think I will be ok, but perhaps you could reply to my post earlier today regarding Web User Controls as no one has given me a reply so far. Regards - Mr N > I've passed a few of these tests. I'd be happy to correspond offline with > you on this... as this thread is quickly becoming a "religious debate". [quoted text clipped - 175 lines] >>>>>>> >>>>>>> :)) > To say that the Microsoft Certification Process is 'meaningless' is simply > 'Incorrect' I disagree. You dub yourself "Mr Newbie" - perhaps when you have a few years' real-world experience under your belt, you will come to understand just how meaningless these pointless pieces of paper are... > The fact that one 'strives' to pass an exam by using study preparations by > definition means that one must 'learn' or assures ones learning during the > course of such preparation. That simply isn't the case. In order to pass any MCP, you need to retain a certain amount of information for no longer than the duration of the exam, after which you will never need to remember it again, and will very quickly forget it. Or, perhaps to qualify that statement a little, you will forget the actual minutiae but will remember where to find it. > The only exception would be when one has already achieved such knowledge > prior to the exam by other means, in which case the only reason to have > taken it would have either been to prove to a third party or oneself that > one has achieved this badge of merit. Again, the only people to whom you will be able to prove this are those who have little understanding of what MCPs are. It's tantamount to trying to get the post of Head of School of Business Studies at the London School of Economics armed with no more than an MBa you'd bought off the Internet (they exist...). If the person interviewing you is sufficiently uninformed about the worth of your "qualification", then more fool them, and good luck to you! > I have never said that the exam certificate is a predicate to being > thought of as professional or to be seen as able in the science of > producing well written software, So why waste your time with it? > but nevertheless, one cannot be harmed from having gone through the > process. On the contrary - I've sat in on more than one technical interview where the interviewee was aked why he'd wasted his time and money on MCPs... > I propose that it is better to have achieved the certificates than not, > and whilst you personally may be more proficient than those who have them, > I think to look down on those who have run the gauntlet of the challenge, > would be rather snobbish to say the least and down right arrogant to say > the most. Making a non-IT analogy, David Blaine (the so-called magician) was able to stand atop a tall pillar in America for a few days without falling off and killing himself, and was able (if he is to be believed) to subsist on nothing more than water for several weeks in a glass box suspended above the Thames. Both feats are doubtless incredibly impressive to those who are impressed by such things - alternatively, what a total and utter waste of time! > Have a thought for those lesser mortals who are so much less able than > yourself, and who aspire to your elevated position, but don't have twelve > years or so to spend on the gut wrenching ardours of coding skirmishes to > be considered worthy to wear your colours, and have to simply settle at > this point for going through Microsoft's own certification system. Alternatively, why not redirect the efforts you will expend in revising for your MCP into actually learning to be a developer...? re: > You dub yourself "Mr Newbie" - perhaps when you have a few years' real-world experience > under your belt I don't think that "Mr. Newbie" is as much of a "newbie" as his self-chosen name would indicate. He seems to have quite a bit of programming experience. Juan T. Llibre, ASP.NET MVP ASP.NET FAQ : http://asp.net.do/faq/ Foros de ASP.NET en Español : http://asp.net.do/foros/ ====================================== >> To say that the Microsoft Certification Process is 'meaningless' is simply 'Incorrect' > [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > Alternatively, why not redirect the efforts you will expend in revising for your MCP > into actually learning to be a developer...? > I don't think that "Mr. Newbie" is as much of > a "newbie" as his self-chosen name would indicate. > > He seems to have quite a bit of programming experience. Wonder why on earth he's wasting his time with MCPs...??? :) >> I don't think that "Mr. Newbie" is as much of >> a "newbie" as his self-chosen name would indicate. >> >> He seems to have quite a bit of programming experience. > > Wonder why on earth he's wasting his time with MCPs...??? :) It is fascinating that neither you, nor Mr Spencer seems to have grasped the fundamentals of my assertion. My point was simply, that the process of preparation is in itself is a learning exercise regardless of if you consider the certificate has merit or not. Some people don't think the way you and Mr Spencer appear to think, and do have an opinion which differs from your good selves, and for them this certificate has some value. If this is true, then the certificate HAS value, and so does the process. I do not claim there is no better way to test someone's ability, nor do I assert that there is not a better learning process. Only that this is a learning process, and does have value to some people. You do not have to subscribe to my views and it is of little importance to me whether you do, or do not. I personally see a value in it, so I will continue to align myself with the process. Have fun and enjoy your anger, at least then it will serve some constructive function. Regards Mr Newbie. . . >> To say that the Microsoft Certification Process is 'meaningless' is >> simply 'Incorrect' [quoted text clipped - 60 lines] > Alternatively, why not redirect the efforts you will expend in revising > for your MCP into actually learning to be a developer...? > My point was simply, that the process of preparation is in itself is a > learning exercise regardless of if you consider the certificate has merit > or not. Some people don't think the way you and Mr Spencer appear to > think, and do have an opinion which differs from your good selves, and for > them this certificate has some value. And lots of people still believe that the earth if flat - what's your point exactly...? > If this is true, then the certificate HAS value, and so does the process. And if it doesn't, then the certificate has no value, nor does the process. > I do not claim there is no better way to test someone's ability, nor do I > assert that there is not a better learning process. Only that this is a > learning process And I counter-claim that, whereas it may be a learning process (as is everything from the moment you are born until the moment you die), that learning is of no practical use whatever other than to prove that you have excellent short-term memory. You may as well learn the value of pi to 1,000 places. > Have fun and enjoy your anger, at least then it will serve some > constructive function. Oh for heaven's sake! > Regards Mr Newbie. . . What's your real name, by the way...? // And I counter-claim that, whereas it may be a learning process (as is everything from the moment you are born until the moment you die), that learning is of no practical use whatever other than to prove that you have excellent short-term memory. You may as well learn the value of pi to 1,000 places. \\ Do you really beleive that 'learning is of no practical use other than to prove that you have excellent short term memory' ? Come now Mr Rae, surely you do not really beleive this ? Regards Mr Newbie . . . >> My point was simply, that the process of preparation is in itself is a >> learning exercise regardless of if you consider the certificate has merit [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > What's your real name, by the way...? > Do you really beleive that 'learning is of no practical use other than to > prove that you have excellent short term memory' ? > > Come now Mr Rae, surely you do not really beleive this ? To pass an MCP, you need to be able to remember a whole slew of minutiae which you will never need to remember thereafter, and which you will therefore quickly forget. It's akin to learning a role for a one-time performance of a play. You may as well just visit one of the many websites from where you can download the entire collection of questions (and answers) for any MCP you're interested in. Mr Rae, Perhaps our differences are mainly as a result of the methods of study you think I employ. In order to study for these certifications, my intention is to learn all I can about the technology so that when I take the exam I can answer the questions with a degree of implicit self trust in my underlying competence. Simply learning answers rote from thousands of multi-choice questions is not my idea of a useful learning experience and that is why I spend a lot of time experimenting with the concepts brought to each chapter of the book I am using. I have used some of the practice questions to prepare myself for the certification exam because I want to get through the exam regardless of whoever thinks it has merit. However, the main drive is to learn, which I am slowly, but surely, managing to do. It may be some time before I can call myself competent or experienced with this particular area of .NET but It will happen, and I will not only have gained the knowledge that I desire, but I will additionally have the certificate. Think of it as a framework which serves as a means to two ends. Regards Mr Newbie >> Do you really beleive that 'learning is of no practical use other than to >> prove that you have excellent short term memory' ? [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > download the entire collection of questions (and answers) for any MCP > you're interested in. > I have used some of the practice questions to prepare myself for the > certification exam because I want to get through the exam regardless of > whoever thinks it has merit. However, the main drive is to learn Now *there's* something I can applaud. The desire for knowledge is, in and of itself, a worthy endeavor. Everyone has their own way of learning. I admit that I seek knowledge about the technologies we work with out of sheer fascination, and spend hours a day reading and researching. Often, that research is in areas that do not necessarily or immediately promote my career, but increase my overall knowledge. And that is always a good thing, as areas of knowledge and study tend to overlap. If I gave you the impression that knowledge itself is useless, let me clear that up right away. While the ability to solve problems and find information is *more" useful to a programmer, the importance of accumulation of knowledge and understanding is not diminished. In fact, I have sometimes toyed with the idea of studying the same materials for just that purpose. However, I have yet to find the time to do so, and I seem to learn better in a less-structured environment. But as I said, we all learn in different ways. SignatureHTH, Kevin Spencer Microsoft MVP .Net Developer A watched clock never boils. > Mr Rae, > [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] >> download the entire collection of questions (and answers) for any MCP >> you're interested in. Do you program with that logic? > Your rhetoric is exhaustive; you must feel passionate about the subject. There is a distinct difference between rhetoric and logic/fact. There is nothing rhetorical in what I wrote. I feel passionate about programming, and about people who want to better themselves at programming. Programming is an admirable profession, and wanting to better one's self is an admirable goal. Your reply is quite long as well. What exactly floats *your* boat? Bitterness and anger? > The fact that one 'strives' to pass an exam by using study preparations by > definition means that one must 'learn' or assures ones learning during the > course of such preparation. I believe I logically pointed out the difference in quality between knowing a lot and knowing how to find out what one needs to know when one needs to know it. I also pointed out that problem-solving is much more valuable than a volume of knowledge, in the programming biz. While you may disagree, perhaps you might like to support your argument with some fact and/or logic. Otherwise, you are simply exhaling noisily. > I have never said that the exam certificate is a predicate to being > thought of as professional or to be seen as able in the science of > producing well written software, but nevertheless, one cannot be harmed > from having gone through the process. I don't believe I suggested anything with regards to what you may or may not have said. I care nothing for how I am thought of, except by those to whom I am accountable, for example, my wife, my boss, and God. And I never mentioned anything about the value of being thought highly of by anyone. You are imagining things. > I propose that it is better to have achieved the certificates than not, > and whilst you personally may be more proficient than those who have them, > I think to look down on those who have run the gauntlet of the challenge, > would be rather snobbish to say the least and down right arrogant to say > the most. Again, I did not imply that I "look down on" anyone. You are reading things into my message that I did not say. My criticism was with regards to the efficacy of certification exams, and with the usefulness of taking and/or passing them. > I'm pleased that you feel able to wear colours which demonstrate your wit, > courage, determination and heroism earned in fighting the bloody, savage > and brutalistic struggles seen in countless project battlegrounds in the > IT Amphitheatre. Another mistaken mis-interpretation. My point was that I speak from experience, and I provided evidence from my own experience to make the argument. A proposition of an idea without some evidence to justify the idea is nothing more than exhaling noisily. I try to avoid that. There are enough opinions floating around this planet to cause global warming. If you write programs with that many assumptions, they must surely be unstable. > Have a thought for those lesser mortals who are so much less able than > yourself, and who aspire to your elevated position, but don't have twelve > years or so to spend on the gut wrenching ardours of coding skirmishes to > be considered worthy to wear your colours, and have to simply settle at > this point for going through Microsoft's own certification system. You've got issues, Mac, "Mr. Newbie," or should I say "Mr. Safely Anonymous." What are you afraid of? It is easy enough to take potshots at people from behind the safety of anonymity. And just as cowardly. SignatureHTH, Kevin Spencer Microsoft MVP .Net Developer A watched clock never boils. > Your rhetoric is exhaustive; you must feel passionate about the subject. > Whilst I see the intellectual merit of some of your points, your argument [quoted text clipped - 168 lines] >>>>>> >>>>>> :)) Oh, come now Mr Spencer ! (Which by the way, could be as fictitious as Mr Newbie?), I was expecting a far more superior a rejoinder than this. We may as well let the matter rest; you have your rhetoric (Which you are convinced is logic and fact) and I have my view. So let us go about our business, and continue to feel comfortable with our assumptions, as I can see we are not likely to make common ground anytime soon. Further dialog is only likely to elevate your resentment of me to an even higher level. With Best Regards The Inimitable Mr Newbie ! AKA( Mr Anon ) ;-D > Do you program with that logic? > [quoted text clipped - 236 lines] >>>>>>> >>>>>>> :)) If you want to impress people with your flowery language, you might want to look up the word "rhetoric" in the dictionary before you go flouncing it around again, unless you are satisfied with your own subjectively elevated perception of your erudition, and wish to continue remain ignorant of reality. An abundance of multi-syllabic 19th-century Louisiana aristocratic dialect doesn't compensate for ignorance of the meaning of words. And, in the future, should you disagree with me, by all means, present your arguments against my assertions, but leave out the personal attacks. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry. SignatureHTH, Kevin Spencer Microsoft MVP .Net Developer A watched clock never boils. > Oh, come now Mr Spencer ! (Which by the way, could be as fictitious as Mr > Newbie?), I was expecting a far more superior a rejoinder than this. [quoted text clipped - 257 lines] >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> :)) Mr Spencer, Definitions of rhetoric on the Web: a.. using language effectively to please or persuade b.. grandiosity: high-flown style; excessive use of verbal ornamentation; "the grandiosity of his prose"; "an excessive ornateness of language" c.. palaver: loud and confused and empty talk; "mere rhetoric" d.. study of the technique and rules for using language effectively (especially in public speaking) You will note that the 'rhetoric' has more than one definition in the popular language usage. The one I refer to was the one at the top. Or more plainly put for your simpler tastes. "Your attempt at producing a cogent and compelling argument". Still, your reply did have me laughing with a degree of gusto. When you get to know me a little better from newsgroups palaver or more useful conversation, you will find I bear no malice nor make it my business to attack personally with the same, nor corporately, as this rarely bears any fruit on the tree of assistance. Regards Mr Newbie.. > If you want to impress people with your flowery language, you might want > to look up the word "rhetoric" in the dictionary before you go flouncing [quoted text clipped - 274 lines] >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> :)) > When you get to know me a little better from newsgroups palaver or more > useful conversation, you will find I bear no malice nor make it my > business to attack personally with the same, nor corporately, as this > rarely bears any fruit on the tree of assistance. I'm glad to hear that. Perhaps I misread some of your rhetorical characterizations. In any case, I'll take you at your word. At least you seem to be able to deal with dispute in an emotionally-healthy manner. That I respect. As for the definition of "rhetoric," you still seem to miss the difference (albeit subtle) between rhetoric and logic, or logical argument. Logic is not an attempt to please or persuade. It is a means of resolving a problem, of ascertaining as closely as possible the truth about an issue. To employ logic in an argument is therefore not the same as to employ rhetoric. Logic does not persuade. You cannot persuade 1 to be 0, nor true to be false. In other words, rhetoric persuades, while logic dictates. I am not interested in persuasion. That is best left to politicians and salesmen. I am interested in truth, in fact, and in the logical ways and means of deriving truth and fact, the only ideas that are useful for the accomplishment of any purpose, particularly with regards to programming, which is purely mathematical and logical, but also to the accomplishment of (theoretically) anything whatsoever. In any case, my passion is the search for truth. I am here to help. Help with regards to these forums comes through knowledge. Knowledge comes not by persuasion, but by logic and fact. When fact is not known, it can often be derived by logic. However, as not all facts are known, what seems to be factual logically may turn out to be false, when more facts are brought to light. Therefore, when I make an argument regarding an idea, I try to employ logic with the same discipline that I apply to programming. I must admit, however, that it is often *regarded* as rhetoric, and taken as a challenge to the individual, rather than to an idea. This often leads to a reaction against me, as if I owned the idea that I made an argument for. I may hold an idea; I may defend and idea; but it will never belong to me. If a person can logically refute the idea, I am just as quick to abandon it. After all, I only have a limited life span in which to solve the riddles of life. Conversely, when I challenge an idea, I am not challenging the individual who promotes the idea, as if the idea were a reflection of that person. However, this is quite often misunderstood in much the same way. Rhetorical persuasion, however, does nothing to clarify an issue, nor to solve a problem. It confuses issues, as it masquerades as information, although it is not. It is manipulation disguised as information. SignatureHTH, Kevin Spencer Microsoft MVP .Net Developer A watched clock never boils. > Mr Spencer, > [quoted text clipped - 301 lines] >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> :)) Congratulations on a well written reply. I have only one point to take you up on. I do not confuse "rhetoric" with logic or fact. Perhaps I could have phrased it more accurately than I did, which lead to the confusion over my meaning. I will take more care next time in order to avoid any confusion. In any case, we seem to have reached a plateau of normality now, so I feel we can move on and leave this well reasoned debate behind. Regards - Mr. Newbie >> When you get to know me a little better from newsgroups palaver or more >> useful conversation, you will find I bear no malice nor make it my [quoted text clipped - 354 lines] >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> :)) :-D SignatureHTH, Kevin Spencer Microsoft MVP .Net Developer A watched clock never boils. > Congratulations on a well written reply. > [quoted text clipped - 370 lines] >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> :)) Free MagazinesGet these publications absolutely FREE for up to 12 months. There are no hidden fees and no obligation. Simply choose a title, complete the application form and submit it. Read more ...
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